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View Poll Results: Should France ban the burqa?
Yes 13 26.00%
No 33 66.00%
Other answer 4 8.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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  #271  
Old 07-07-2009, 06:49 PM
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I understand the establishment clause as protecting freedom of and from religion. Should have included that.
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  #272  
Old 07-07-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomon View Post
The Establishment Clause
... is not relevant in France.
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  #273  
Old 07-09-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
Response: O.K. I see. You are asking for the reasons behind the difference in dress codes. Well, men wear the jalabiyya which is no different from the burqa. The only difference is that their is no face covering which is not obligatory in islam anyway. As for most religious writings concerning females, it's because it's women for the most part who want to change or differ as to what is considered modest for them.
Let's compare:
Jalabiya

Burqa

It seems to me that "just the face covering" makes a huge difference, so far that the two really can't be compared.

Furthermore, though I've poked around on the internet, I have seen nothing to indicate that the jalabiya is anything more than a traditional garmet, with no ties to modesty or compulsory wearing.

The burqa, though it too began as a traditional form of dress, has morphed into a symbol of modesty. For all your claims that the burqa is non-obligatory, it is certainly compulsory in certain Islamic societies, such as the Taliban, and certain areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. wiki source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
Response: Good questions. To understand the true answer, one needs to be honesty on both parts. You see, men and women are not the same. What attracts a man differs from what attracts a woman naturally. The hair of a woman is much more appealing to a man than a man's hair is to a woman. I know that you and other's will say that woman also find a man's hair attractive as well. I agree. But the fact of the matter is that it is much more appealing to men than it is women. There's a reason why women take so long and spend so much time in a hair salon and will have a fit when they have a bad hair day.
So, the answer to the fact that men find feminine hair appealing is to hide it? Do we tend to hide other beautiful things in our life? When you see a flower, do you throw your coat over it, because it is too appealing?

Furthermore, would it not be better for men to learn to control their actions? There is no reason why a man should not be able to see a woman's hair, admire it, and then walk on past. Females have obviously learned to control their desires; there is no reason why males should be coddled, especially when it is at the expense of the females.

(I enjoy the frankness of your responses; I just want you to know that I see that you are thinking, and I am learning, and I value both.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
As for the long sleeves? Well, it is quite natural and common for women to reveal their bodies towards the opposite sex in order to feel attractive. So to decrease that temptation, Allah has preferred that woman should cover their whole body. The expression "you give them an inch and they take a mile", comes to mind. Instead of saying that it's o.k. to reveal certain parts of the body, Allah makes it important to cover the whole body so the mind doesn't have any desire to reveal any parts of the body which is not necessary. It is best to have this mentality.
Is it wrong to desire to feel attractive?

In addition, the desire of females to uncover their arms is only wrong (or immodest) if you first believe that uncovered arms is immodest.

I'm trying not to be disrespectful, but to decree that the entire body should be covered, just to make sure the truly important bits are protected, does seem to be a bit like trying to remove a bullet with a hatchet. Wouldn't a scalpel be more suitable?

I think people tend to respond better to rules that have a clear reason and are fair. This is why your "give an inch, they take a mile" quote doesn't really work: People understand why they shouldn't take the mile, but they might not understand why you won't give them an inch. (For example, they understand why they shouldn't uncover their breasts, but they might not understand why they can't uncover their arms.) By not giving an inch, you threaten the integrity of the whole thing: once people start questioning the fairness and rational of the "inch", they start to wonder whether the "mile" itself isn't so bad either. And before you know it, you've got a revolution.
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  #274  
Old 07-09-2009, 09:22 AM
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I think France is just rule mad. Rules rules rules. You can see it in the EU. Rules for every flipping thing.
I think France should not ban the burqa because I think that a state telling someone what they are permitted to wear is ridiculous.
Whether the burqa is Islamic or not is a separate debate entirely as far as I'm concerned.
Let's say France decided to ban ski masks. The principles are exactly the same.
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  #275  
Old 07-09-2009, 10:51 AM
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Default Response: Falvun
[QUOTE Falvlun]Let's compare:
Jalabiya

Burqa

It seems to me that "just the face covering" makes a huge difference, so far that the two really can't be compared.

Furthermore, though I've poked around on the internet, I have seen nothing to indicate that the jalabiya is anything more than a traditional garmet, with no ties to modesty or compulsory wearing.

The burqa, though it too began as a traditional form of dress, has morphed into a symbol of modesty. For all your claims that the burqa is non-obligatory, it is certainly compulsory in certain Islamic societies, such as the Taliban, and certain areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. wiki source. (End quote)

Response: I'm answering your questions as to what islam teaches. The burqa is not mandatory in islam. Modesty is, which can be held without the burqa. There is nothing in the qur'an which says the burqa is compulsary, nor in the hadiths. You can check and verify yourself. Therefore, it is not islam.

(Quote Falvun)
So, the answer to the fact that men find feminine hair appealing is to hide it? Do we tend to hide other beautiful things in our life? When you see a flower, do you throw your coat over it, because it is too appealing?(End Quote)

Response: We are talking about modesty in men and women so the flower reference has no relation to modesty.

(Quote Falvun)
Furthermore, would it not be better for men to learn to control their actions? There is no reason why a man should not be able to see a woman's hair, admire it, and then walk on past. Females have obviously learned to control their desires; there is no reason why males should be coddled, especially when it is at the expense of the females.

(I enjoy the frankness of your responses; I just want you to know that I see that you are thinking, and I am learning, and I value both.) (End quote)

Response: Men should control their actions. Women as well. However, we are weak by nature so it is not that simple unless one is taught discipline. As I said before, the hijab is to protect the woman's modesty as well. It teaches the woman herself to not go near promiscuity. Men are attracted to the beauty of men. A woman may find this attraction she gets from men irresistable, which leads her to a life of promiscuity. So one should not look at the hijab as a way to keep men from losing control of their desires but it's to control the woman's as well. It goes both ways.

(Quote Falvun)
Is it wrong to desire to feel attractive?(End quote)

Response: You can feel attractive, but not to go to the extreme. You don't have to flaunt your body. To me, the most beautiful thing in the world is a modest woman who's body is covered. The less you wear, the less attractive. That is because I'm modest as well. If you don't understand this and can't relate, we'll just have to leave it to the fact that we have different taste and move on.
(Quote Falvun)
In addition, the desire of females to uncover their arms is only wrong (or immodest) if you first believe that uncovered arms is immodest.(End quote)

Response: Again, you seem to miss the point of protecting modesty. Revealing the arms is not immodest, but covering the arms help to protect it. If you develop the mentality to always cover your whole body, you'll have lesser of a chance to develop a desire to reveal anything.

(End quote)
I'm trying not to be disrespectful, but to decree that the entire body should be covered, just to make sure the truly important bits are protected, does seem to be a bit like trying to remove a bullet with a hatchet. Wouldn't a scalpel be more suitable?(End Quote)

Response: Not when it comes to developing a mentality to be modest. It's the extremity that helps develop the mentality. Think about it? How does the military teach discipline? Through extreme excercises. The likes thereof that most would not want to go through. But we don't question the military do we? No. Why? Because it produces some of the best discipline imaginable. That's the point that people don't understand about islam. They see things and just like you they say, "isn't that too much or unnecessary?" But just like the military, that is how discipline is taught. Ramadhan is coming soon. Here, all muslims are to not eat and drink or have sexual intercourse for one month while the sun is up. To be able to do so takes much discipline and one also learns the meaning of sacrifice. After a month of doing this, you gather a more humble and disciplined character, you understand poverty and what it feels like to not have which makes you more appreciative, etc. Now what caused this? The extremity of giving up that which is precious during the month is what caused it. An extremity helps to teach discipline.

(Quote Falvun)
I think people tend to respond better to rules that have a clear reason and are fair. This is why your "give an inch, they take a mile" quote doesn't really work: People understand why they shouldn't take the mile, but they might not understand why you won't give them an inch. (For example, they understand why they shouldn't uncover their breasts, but they might not understand why they can't uncover their arms.) By not giving an inch, you threaten the integrity of the whole thing: once people start questioning the fairness and rational of the "inch", they start to wonder whether the "mile" itself isn't so bad either. And before you know it, you've got a revolution.(End quote)

Response: Good point. But the difference is that no one is forcing you to go an inch or a mile. Those questions should be answered before they decide to make your decision as to whether or not they want to agree to the terms of not giving that "inch". When that happens, there is no problem.
Last edited by Fatihah; 07-09-2009 at 11:34 AM..
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  #276  
Old 07-10-2009, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenw View Post
I think France should not ban the burqa because I think that a state telling someone what they are permitted to wear is ridiculous.
Perhaps its the state giving young women and women in general the option to be permitted to dress more freely (or rather sanely is the word I look for).
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  #277  
Old 07-10-2009, 07:35 AM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caladan View Post
Perhaps its the state giving young women and women in general the option to be permitted to dress more freely (or rather sanely is the word I look for).[/quote]
are you sure it wasn't INSANELY? just a thought.
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  #278  
Old 07-10-2009, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by eselam View Post

are you sure it wasn't INSANELY? just a thought.
eselam, if you want to make a public survey and poll for RF members in order to understand just how sane they think the Burqa is, by all means.
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  #279  
Old 07-10-2009, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Caladan View Post
Perhaps its the state giving young women and women in general the option to be permitted to dress more freely (or rather sanely is the word I look for).
Why do you presume that women in France do not have that freedom?

If they did not, wouldn't a law ensuring they do have such freedom be more appropriate?

How is telling women what not to wear less patriarchal than telling them what to wear?
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:45 AM
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eselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubals
eselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubalseselam will pole dance for frubals
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caladan View Post
eselam, if you want to make a public survey and poll for RF members in order to understand just how sane they think the Burqa is, by all means.
so wasn't it people with brain dissorders that take their clothes off? i have never heard of a person with a brain dissorder to WEAR more clothes. this has existed since the time of the prophet. a woman had a sickness and would take her clothes off. so i'd say insanity is in support of wearing less clothes rather than more?

don't you agree?
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Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, 'I am to my slave as he thinks of Me.
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