Should France ban the burqa?

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by TashaN

Didn't you notice that most of the members in RF are either from Europe or the US?

Yes, and does that make them ignorant of just how 'progressive' Iran is compared to their nations?

Let's focus in our case of hijab better not to miss the point of this discussion.

Actually this point is highly relevant.
it was in response to this part of your post:

Are you aware of the hardly earned nature of Iranian domestic politics, mainly the unseparation of religion and state?!

to which I pointed that the 'hard earned nature of Iranian domestic affairs' has been done through systematic cracking down on human rights, including execution of homosexuals, even minors, atrocities against Baha'is, and human rights violations against the general population.
The idea behind separation of church and state in great part stems from the experience of how to avoid such dystopian realities.

I'm glad you know you are being bias in this case but still that doesn't explain the tone of hypocrisy i sense in your post. At least you should have agreed that Iran have the same right that France do have in this case.

I dont think you understand my 'bias', my bias is indeed believing in the benefit of separation of religion and politics, and religion and state, that much is obvious, this is a bias that springs from my secular life style, just like you should be aware of your bias in this issue because of your adherence to Islam.

I'm just showing facts.

If calling other people hypocrites and saying that they have no shame are 'showing facts', than I guess we will simply have to survive this difference of standards between the way I conduct debates and the way you do it.

[kai]

Originally Posted by TashaN

Exactly. I wish you become the PM of your country one day.

Ha ha what a day that would be

[kai]

Look i believe that freedom of the individual is paramount, if there is some security issue or law enforcement ( and that includeds incitement to violence etc before the KKK come climbing out the woodwork)issue then fine ,work it out. But banning freedom of expression to the point wear the state controls what a person wears is wrong. i don't care if its Islamic or secular in my book its wrong.

[kai]

[quote=TashaN;1595591]Yes, ALL Muslim scholars, while they disagree on whether woman should cover her face or not, they ALL agree not to condemn the other side who choose to go with either argument. So it's up to the woman.




Thats great thanks, now all we have to do is spread the word.

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by TashaN

Yes, ALL Muslim scholars, while they disagree on whether woman should cover her face or not, they ALL agree not to condemn the other side who choose to go with either argument. So it's up to the woman.

Originally Posted by kai

Thats great thanks, now all we have to do is spread the word.

I'll give you guys a hand (I thought I already have with this video which opens up with a little speech of Iranian interior minister specifically saying that Iran needs to enforce women covering themselves)

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

[Trey of Diamonds]

Originally Posted by kai

List of largest empires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for that link, I'll be going through it soon.

[Falvlun]

Originally Posted by TashaN

I'm not making a case for Iran here. I'm just stunned at the level of hypocrisy being practiced here. How is FORCING women to NOT dress is any different than FORCING them to DO?

EDIT: and yeah, i did watch that video.

I agree, there is a degree of hypocrisy for those who claim it's ok for France to legislate clothing choices, but not ok for Iran to do so. I just wanted to point out that it is also hypocritical for those who support forcing women to wear the burqa to complain about what the French are doing.

I'm actually in Kai's camp. I don't think the French, in the name of "liberating" woman, should outright ban the burqa. However, I think it is well within their rights to require the removal of the burqa when identification purposes are required. This would include during the creation of any photo-IDs, and the admittance into any place that requires a photo-ID.

Actually, I think a ban of the burqa would really backfire for the French, both as a nation, and for their ostensible cause of freeing females. Even non-radical Muslims see this as an attack of Islam as a whole; many see this as a slippery slope of discriminations against Muslims. This hurts France's relationship with the Muslim world.

Also, imagine what the effects of this ban would be. The hard-core burqa-believers would simply move to a country that allows the burqa, and would likely choose one that demanded it. You would not be "freeing" any of these woman, but would probably facilitate an even more constricted life in a less free country. France would likely even lose some moderates, who are disgusted with this discriminatory legislation.

Burqa-wearing woman who live in France now, should they decide to rebel against the burqa, would have a safety net and support from the surrounding culture. If you drive these woman from France, who could they turn to if they were brought to Iran?

Nah. Banning the burqa based upon liberating woman just does not make sense.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Caladan

I'll give you guys a hand (I thought I already have with this video which opens up with a little speech of Iranian interior minister specifically saying that Iran needs to enforce women covering themselves)

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

well dare i say it but Iranian and Saudi laws etc have nothing to do with Islam, remember there are no true Islamic countries and no Caliph so no Sharia. this is the diversity that was brought up in another thread. Indeed Islam cannot be judged by the actions of the Iranians or the Saudis.

[Falvlun]

Originally Posted by Caladan

I think your emotional outburst simply prevents you of seeing the other side of the debate, or the hardly earned nature of French domestic politics, mainly separation of religion and the state.

I'm really not seeing how banning the burqa equals separation of the church and state. Traditionally, in the US at least, separation of church and state means two things: 1) No established national religion, and 2) No inserting religion into law-making or government workings.

There's nothing in there about banning religious practices in the general populace. In fact, that seems like the whole point of separation of church and state: no religious discrimination.

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by kai

well dare i say it but Iranian and Saudi laws etc have nothing to do with Islam, remember there are no true Islamic countries and no Caliph so no Sharia.

Would the real Muslim please stand up.

this is the diversity that was brought up in another thread. Indeed Islam cannot be judged by the actions of the Iranians or the Saudis.

Iran is a nation of 70 million people, it is waving the banner of Shia Islam in world political stage today, I think its pretty fair to judge the actions of the most significant force of Shia Islam as indicative of the many phenomena of the Islamic world.