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Old 11-15-2008, 06:30 PM
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Default "Results of Prop 8" - Response to thread in the LDS forum
The purpose of this thread is to open up debate/discussion to the "Results of Prop 8" thread in the Latter-day Saints individual religions forum.

Some thoughts:
  • Obviously it is incredibly wrong and inexcusable for anyone to do many of the things cited in the "Results of Prop 8" thread.
    • E.g., holding signs that say "Mormon scum", burning the Book of Mormon in front of a Mormon church, sending envelopes with white powder to people, or trespassing on private property, and causing a disturbance are very wrong crimes that should be prosecuted.
  • Not all of the actions cited have been substantiated and not all of them can be attributed to gay-rights supporters.
    • For example, in post #26 Apex posted articles about hate crimes directed at Mormons. By saying "more" and posting this in a thread called "Results of Prop 8", Apex is implying that these attacks came from gay-rights supporters. This may be true, but anti-Mormon hate crimes have happened long before Prop 8 and authorities have not determined who is responsible for these crimes.
    • In post # 39 Apex posted an image of protesters, one of whom carries a sign that reads "Mormon scum". Obviously that is inappropriate. However the image came from lolcats and thus there is no telling whether or not it is authentic.
  • Obviously it's unfair to group all Mormons together when many of them opposed Prop 8.
  • OTOH, the fact of the matter is that the LDS Church, and thousands of individual Mormons--many of whom don't even live in California--were instrumental in taking away a civil right. More than any other organization / group of individuals, Prop 8 could not have passed without their support (see below for details). Organizations and individuals that take away civil rights are indeed responsible for their actions. Peaceful boycotts, protests, and criticism is entirely appropriate.
    • The campaigns for and against Prop 8 raised about the same amount, ~ $35 - $37 million respectively
    • Half of all contributions to the pro-Prop 8 campaign came from Utah; LDS Church members account for less than 2% of California's population, yet donations of $1000 or more from individual Mormons totaled $16 million. (source: Mormons For Proposition 8 Donors — Mormons for Proposition 8 )
    • The LDS Church all but commanded its membership to support Prop 8, going so far as to invoke the interests of (other peoples') children:
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by The following letter was sent from the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008:
      "...The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage....Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause. We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
      California and Same-Sex Marriage - LDS Newsroom
  • In the thread, it is implied that the boycotts, angry (but peaceful) protests, and the forced resignations of Prop 8 supporters from prominent positions are inappropriate. Those things would be inappropriate if this were just any old political issue. But it's not. Prop 8 took away peoples' civil rights, and the aforementioned responses are entirely appropriate, just as they were appropriate during the fight for desegregation.
    • Ordinarily, on some typical tax levy or other measure, it would indeed be over the line to boycott the businesses of those who voted differently than you. But Prop 8 transcended just any ordinary "disagreement over politics".
    • Apex posted at least two examples of people who were publicly shamed and forced to resign because they donated money to support Prop 8. The implication was that it was the gays and their supporters, not the Prop 8 supporters, who went over the line in these instances. But the exact opposite is true.
      • Notice that none of the Prop 8 supporters cited are indignant or defiant--instead they are ashamed and humiliated. None of them defends their stance, they just meekly ask forgiveness. There's a reason for that. They are coming to realize that what they thought was merely an expression of a private religious belief actually ended up taking their friends' and customers' rights away. And they feel terrible because their friends and customers are mad at them, as they should be.
Your thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2008, 06:41 PM
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Fascinating analysis, Spinks. Thanks for laying out so much information so clearly. Given the particular manner in which the Mormon Church was involved in the campaign for Proposition 8, hasn't it risked its tax exempt status?
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
Fascinating analysis, Spinks. Thanks for laying out so much information so clearly. Given the particular manner in which the Mormon Church was involved in the campaign for Proposition 8, hasn't it risked its tax exempt status?
I thought tax-exempt entities were allowed to support ballot issues, so I would say no, they haven't risked their tax-exempt status. What do you think?
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  #4  
Old 11-15-2008, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles View Post
I thought tax-exempt entities were allowed to support ballot issues, so I would say no, they haven't risked their tax-exempt status. What do you think?
I'm not sure about the law on this issue. I know they are not allowed to support candidates, but I'm unclear whether they are allowed to support ballot issues. I'll take your word that they are, unless you tell me otherwise.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:56 PM
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Normally, I would be firmly and adamantly opposed to pressuring anyone over their support for a political position. But in this case, people were deprived of a fundamental right. That changes things for me. If a business looses customers and goes under because its staff, or its owner, supported Prop 8, so be it. What's the difference between boycotting that business for its support of Prop 8 and boycotting a business in the 1960s for its support of segregation?
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2008, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
Normally, I would be firmly and adamantly opposed to pressuring anyone over their support for a political position. But in this case, people were deprived of a fundamental right. That changes things for me. If a business looses customers and goes under because its staff, or its owner, supported Prop 8, so be it. What's the difference between boycotting that business for its support of Prop 8 and boycotting a business in the 1960s for its support of segregation?
Exactly.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:25 PM
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I do not really want to get into a debate over all this but I would like to clarify a few misconceptions in your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles View Post
  • Not all of the actions cited have been substantiated and not all of them can be attributed to gay-rights supporters.
    • For example, in post #26 Apex posted articles about hate crimes directed at Mormons. By saying "more" and posting this in a thread called "Results of Prop 8", Apex is implying that these attacks came from gay-rights supporters. This may be true, but anti-Mormon hate crimes have happened long before Prop 8 and authorities have not determined who is responsible for these crimes.
    • I realize that some of the actions may not be gay-rights supporters. But, it is fairly safe to assume they are due to the results of Prop 8. Hence the title of the thread and why I did not title it "Actions of gay-rights supporters due to Prop 8" or something similar.
  • Quote:
    In post # 39 Apex posted an image of protesters, one of whom carries a sign that reads "Mormon scum". Obviously that is inappropriate. However the image came from lolcats and thus there is no telling whether or not it is authentic.
    It is authentic. It is all over the sites about the recent protests. Someone just took the picture and put the "lol cat" type text on it.
Sarcasm.
Quote:
  • In the thread, it is implied that the boycotts, angry (but peaceful) protests, and the forced resignations of Prop 8 supporters from prominent positions are inappropriate.
I never referred to peaceful protests as inappropriate. I actually stated, several times on this forum, that peaceful protests directed at the populace who voted "yes" in general, are what they should have been doing all along. Not the violate and hate filled protests at the LDS Temple.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:34 PM
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I think one of the things that alarms me about the success of Proposition 8 is the message it sends that fundamental rights can be revoked by a majority vote. That leads me to wonder how far we are from revoking other rights. Especially in a day when so many rights have come under assault from the Bush administration. Are we looking at a broad rollback of rights in this country? I'm not arguing here about the legality of revoking rights -- I'm arguing about the atmosphere in which so many rights seem to be under attack.
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Last edited by Sunstone; 11-15-2008 at 07:41 PM..
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
I think one of the things that alarms me about the success of Proposition 8 is the message it sends that fundamental rights can be revoked by a majority vote. That leads me to wonder how far we are from revoking other rights. Especially in a day when so many rights have come under assault from the Bush administration. Are we looking at a broad rollback of rights in this country? I'm not arguing here about the legality of revoking rights -- I'm arguing about the atmosphere in which so many rights seem be under attack.
Can the CA Supreme Court not overrule this one?
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:40 PM
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Can the CA Supreme Court not overrule this one?
I don't know. I've heard various opinions on that, Apex, and I don't know who's is best.
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