What Is Reality? (experience, verse)

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Matter matters, even if there is no life to perceive the matter. If every living organism in the universe suddenly ceased to exist, would the rest do so as well, no of course not. It would not be manipulated an used for anothers purpose, it would simply exist as it is and as it should.

I disagree. Only humans care what matters.

[Master Vigil]

Humans care what matters, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing else matters, we are the only ones that care. And even with that I disagree, for animals care if they are hurt, and plants have thorns to protect themselves from destruction. Humans are not the greatest things in the universe, we are not the only things that matter.

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Humans care what matters, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing else matters, we are the only ones that care. And even with that I disagree, for animals care if they are hurt, and plants have thorns to protect themselves from destruction. Humans are not the greatest things in the universe, we are not the only things that matter.

When I talked about no life in the Universe I meant NO life, that means animals, trees, insects, etc. There is no purpose to the universe without life. We will probably have to agree to disagree.

[Runt]

Q-- Your responses are almost too funny to even comment upon. However....

They are one and the same. You’re version invites more than one reality and that is not the case. When one perceives reality for what it is – that is the one reality – upper or lower case.

They are not one and the same. The difference is between the illusion of reality vs reality as it truly is.

So, I would have to ask you, what reality are you viewing?

I am viewing "reality", the brain's translation of the way things really are, rather than "Reality", which simply IS the way things really are without inaccurate and limited perception leaving parts of the picture out and changing others. As are you.

The answer is not so simple, because who is really capable of perceiving Reality as it really is?

Anyone with the mental capacity to do so.

Wrong. Anyone with the mental capacity to perceive reality would understand that the very perception of reality is an illusion, created either by the mind's act of assigning incorrect values to elements within reality (like your insistence that the macrocosm is more "important" than the microcosm), or by simply blinding people to the nature of these elements within reality through translation that we assume to be a correct and complete picture of reality (a leaf only appears green... it is not...instead, certain wavelengths on the color spectrum are being absorbed while others are being reflected, and the eyes can sense these wavelengths and the brain can alert us to their presense by registering them as "color" in our minds... but it is not color, but a wavelength, that you are sensing... a wavelength that translates in your mind as color but exists outside of your mind as a wavelength. And yet, even knowing this, you are unable to percieve reality in its totality because you CANNOT stop seeing that color green, even if you know that green really doesn't exist except in your mind.)

Our senses have evolved in order for us to perceive reality for what it is, not create some version of reality.

Wrong. Our senses have evolved in order for us to perceive reality, but don't allow us to percieve it as it truly is. We are only able to perceive it in ways that allow us to survive in reality.

Yes, with an instrument that enhances perception. We know ultraviolet light exists and we can detect it. In fact, we can detect all the frequencies of the spectrum. That is reality.

Wrong. A blind man cannot claim to have complete perception because he knows that sight exists, and you cannot claim to know the truth about reality simply because you have instruments that tell you that things within reality exist. The blind man's inability to see, regardless of whether or not he knows that it is possible to view the world with a fifth sense that he does not posess, makes his personal understanding of reality an illusion, for to his sight it appears that there are no physical elements before him when there really are. Your (and, indeed, my) inablity to sense parts of reality, regardless of whether or not you can use instruments to prove that there are things beyond that which your five senses can detect, still makes YOUR personal understanding of reality an illusion, for your senses make it seem as if certain elements of reality do not exist when in truth they do, and you simply cannot sense them.

Technology allows you to know that something exists, but doesn't allow that something to be part of your personal perception, and therefore your perception of reality is incorrect. You can use your instruments to try to describe and explore reality, and it may give you a small understanding, but even that is limited. We are very technologically advanced, but science does not yet know everything there is to know about the universe (and, in my opinion, probably never will), and therefore even the UNDERSTANDING of reality is limited. New things will probably be discovered by future scientists that will even render some of our present understanding about reality incorrect, while our perception of reality will remain limited and inaccurate despite our understanding. Unless we evolve, but even then there will STILL be limitations and translations rather than a view of the real thing.

I don’t get that – why would we be living an illusion?

We're not living an illusion so much as living according to one. The values we assign to reality (such as the insistence that the life of a human is more valuable than that of a dog because a human is smarter than a dog, or that the change in a molecular structure is unimportant because it does not affect the universe in any truly visible way) CAN cause us to live ACCORDING to an illusion. Just think of people who work to make the colors of their clothing match when color itself is an illusion...

Our physiology has evolved in order for us to correctly perceive reality.

As I have said before and I find myself having to say again, if this is true, then why can't you SEE ultraviolet light? Your instruments only allow you to KNOW that it exists; it does not allow you, yourself, to experience ultraviolet light, to incorprate it into your daily life (I don't see you choosing a pair of pants that don't clash with your ultraviolot shirt, for example). You might wear sunscreen because you know it exists and don't want UV radiation to harm your skin, but you are unable to physically see light in the UV end of the spectrum, and therefore, your perception of Reality (whether lowercase or uppercase) is limited, and you are unable to see anything but an illlusion or incomplete picture of Reality.

Sound waves most certainly do exist. Our ears evolved in order to perceive sound correctly. Sound did not come about because we have ears – it’s the other way round.

Again, I said that sound WAVES do exist... but sound only exists within our mind. SOUND came about because of ears... sound WAVES existed prior to ears.

Massive amounts of matter and energy get changed in the universe every day and very little happen to the rest of the universe aside from what is taking place locally.

And locally, there is a change. Why do you assign more value to the macrocosm than the microcosm. It is only important because, with our limited perception, we view things that are "bigger" as having greater value. A small change only affects a small portion of the universe, but it is still a change and it still has an effect.

Billions of stars get compacted to nothingness in black holes

Thereby changing the nature of the universe... the universe as it once was is changed because there are billions of stars missing that were once present. Those black holes wield an influence on matter immediatly surrounding them and a smaller and smaller influence as you move further away... but they still influence the universe as a whole. Maybe not much... but again, that is assigning value and value is an illusion.

virtual particles pop in and out of existence (creating matter) all the time.

Need I go on?

[Master Vigil]

But again lightkeeper, there are many purposes in the universe. Not just for the living. So even if no life existed, the universe would still be there, all the planets, all the stars, everything. Who are we to say that it has no purpose?

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

But again lightkeeper, there are many purposes in the universe. Not just for the living. So even if no life existed, the universe would still be there, all the planets, all the stars, everything. Who are we to say that it has no purpose?

Name the purposes.

[Mr Spinkles]

Runt said:

a leaf only appears green... it is not...instead, certain wavelengths on the color spectrum are being absorbed while others are being reflected, and the eyes can sense these wavelengths and the brain can alert us to their presense by registering them as "color" in our minds... but it is not color, but a wavelength, that you are sensing... a wavelength that translates in your mind as color but exists outside of your mind as a wavelength

Here, you have basically said that what we experience (color) is an illusion, and that the "reality" is wavelengths of light.

Then, Runt said:

YOUR personal understanding of reality an illusion, for your senses make it seem as if certain elements of reality do not exist when in truth they do, and you simply cannot sense them.

Here, you are suggesting the opposite: that the "reality" is some sort of experience/sense of ultra-violet light that we do not have, not the knowledge of wavelengths of ultra-violet light. This contradicts your previous characterization of reality.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with Q on this one. Conceptualizing different wavelengths of light, and the experience of different colors are just two ways to perceive colors--neither way is more 'real' than the other.

I would argue that although perception can be misinterpreted, it's 'reality' need never be called into question. For example, a dream may be interpreted to have actually happened outside the mind, when in fact the dream only took place inside the mind. The dream itself, however, was 'real' because it was made up of a bunch of nuerons firing in the brain--the dream was made of matter and energy, which are definitely 'real'.

[(Q)]

Your responses are almost too funny to even comment upon.

Well, I’m glad to have entertained you, but I never really considered logic and reason to be that funny.

The difference is between the illusion of reality vs reality as it truly is.

And what’s not funny about that statement? You’ve essentially created two realities for yourself. So, what is the difference between your illusion of reality and reality?

I am viewing "reality", the brain's translation of the way things really are, rather than "Reality", which simply IS the way things really are without inaccurate and limited perception leaving parts of the picture out and changing others.

It gets funnier. So, you are saying that the brain does not accurately portray reality? You’ll have to explain the differences. What parts are being left out? What is being changed?

And yet, even knowing this, you are unable to percieve reality in its totality because you CANNOT stop seeing that color green, even if you know that green really doesn't exist except in your mind

The mind perceives reality correctly if the leaf only reflects green light. What other colors are you expecting to see? What would you like to see?

We are only able to perceive it in ways that allow us to survive in reality.

That is some serious nonsense, but I’ll give you ample room to explain that one.

YOUR personal understanding of reality an illusion, for your senses make it seem as if certain elements of reality do not exist when in truth they do, and you simply cannot sense them.

So, what exists in reality that we can’t detect to exist? Please explain.

Technology allows you to know that something exists, but doesn't allow that something to be part of your personal perception, and therefore your perception of reality is incorrect.

More serious nonsense – please explain.

New things will probably be discovered by future scientists that will even render some of our present understanding about reality incorrect, while our perception of reality will remain limited and inaccurate despite our understanding.

That is pure fallacious speculation.

We're not living an illusion so much as living according to one. The values we assign to reality…

That has nothing to do with the state of reality and does not support your argument.

but you are unable to physically see light in the UV end of the spectrum, and therefore, your perception of Reality (whether lowercase or uppercase) is limited, and you are unable to see anything but an illlusion or incomplete picture of Reality.

That is another fallacious argument. Simply because I cannot ‘see’ something with my eyes does not make reality an illusion.

Sorry, but your argument does not hold any water simply because you cannot accept reality for what it is. If the brain creates an illusion of reality, then there are equal amounts of realities as there are people in the world, and that of course is nonsense.

As always, you continue to confuse and create definitions of terms.

Perceive – to become aware through the senses.

Reality - The state of the world as it really is rather than, as you might want it to be.

To perceive reality is to become aware of it through the senses.

Need I go on?

No, don’t bother. You have yet to grasp the importance of the English language and the ability to fundamentally communicate. I can’t talk to you if you don’t know the meanings of words.