Question for atheists (ritual, hell, experience, agnostic, spiritual)

[Door_of_perception]

Obviously the answer to this question will vary given the individual. But that only makes it more interesting to ask.

My question is, do you believe there is nothing beyond the reality we know and experience; that altered states of mind, "doors of perception" and the like are simply illusions; or do you just believe that the existence of a "deeper" reality (a Ground of Being if you will) is not evidence of God?

I'm just confused as to whether most atheists believe spiritual experiences to be a sham. Because when push comes to shove, maybe you are not as anti-spiritual as you think; maybe your beef is with how God and religion are presented rather than their existence at all. Or maybe not. Either way, I'll be interested to see answers to this question (I tried to make it as concise and straightforward as I could, maybe if it's confusing someone can come up with a rewording.)

[Jaiket]

I just don't care. Is there a God? What form is God? Does God do this or that? Who gives?

I'm not sure if I'm athiest then and whether I qualify for your question.

[Door_of_perception]

No, I suppose you are an agnostic or something of the sort.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by Door of perception

I'm just confused as to whether most atheists believe spiritual experiences to be a sham.

What is a 'spiritual experience' exactly?

If someone tells me that they felt a strange presence while in a haunted house, I don't think it's a sham...I'll bet they probably did feel a strange presence. The real question is what caused the feeling...a supernatural being, or the firing of neurons in the brain? My guess is the neuron thing.

[Pah]

Originally Posted by Door_of_perception

Obviously the answer to this question will vary given the individual. But that only makes it more interesting to ask.

My question is, do you believe there is nothing beyond the reality we know and experience; that altered states of mind, "doors of perception" and the like are simply illusions; or do you just believe that the existence of a "deeper" reality (a Ground of Being if you will) is not evidence of God?

I'm just confused as to whether most atheists believe spiritual experiences to be a sham. Because when push comes to shove, maybe you are not as anti-spiritual as you think; maybe your beef is with how God and religion are presented rather than their existence at all. Or maybe not. Either way, I'll be interested to see answers to this question (I tried to make it as concise and straightforward as I could, maybe if it's confusing someone can come up with a rewording.)

To me:

• Altered states of mind, among other things, include drug, alcohol and most of the psychological disorders - they exist there in the mind
• Many illusions reside in the mind
• There is no hard evidence of any god.
• There is one reality - different people subjectively experience different aspects of it
• Reality is not necessarily coherent
• No experience is a sham
• I am aspiritual - without a spiritual aspect
• Gods are not objective
• You can not present something that does not exist objectively
• I am not easily swayed by another's "truth"

Bob

[Door_of_perception]

Have you read Doors of Perception/Heaven & Hell? In the latter essay, Aldous Huxley (granted, not a scientist, but a very brilliant man nonetheless) embraces scientific explanations of why people have so-called "spiritual" experiences and yet at the same time, holds that these explanations (misfiring neurons and the like) do not deny the possibility of the "supernatural." He puts it much better than I do, at any rate.

[Door_of_perception]

When you say you are aspiritual, what exactly do you mean? How are you lacking in a "spiritual element"?

[Pah]

Originally Posted by Door_of_perception

When you say you are aspiritual, what exactly do you mean? How are you lacking in a "spiritual element"?

I don't have one.

Bob

[Door_of_perception]

What I mean is what exactly is it you feel you're lacking? In other words, how do you define spirituality (which you must, in order to know you don't have it)?

[Pah]

Originally Posted by Door_of_perception

What I mean is what exactly is it you feel you're lacking? In other words, how do you define spirituality (which you must, in order to know you don't have it)?

I don't lack it - that implies it is necessary or "normal". I suppose spirituality is a reverence for something supernatural but I'll go with what ever anybody says it is.

Bob