Do relaxed homework policies help or hurt children?

[UltraViolet]

Test grades to me are not a marker of "pass" or "fail".
They can be indicative of what one is able to understand, remember,
complete quickly (under a time limit), cram (and then forget).
They can be indicative of distractions in personal/home life,
or simply personal interest (or lack of interest) in the subject matter.

Tests basically measure WHO IS A GOOD STUDENT.
And to an extent... sometimes more, sometimes less...
who, to date (or simply on the date of the test),
"knows" (or knows how to do) what, or not.

And they give a teacher with many students,
a sense of who is capable of doing well on said required test.
(on said required date of the test)

Sometimes a test says more...
something substantial about a person's knowledge/ability of a particular subject,
sometimes not.

Often times it just says that a student is a good test taker.
And those who aren't, are relegated the red stamp of "fail"ure.
Excellent for self esteem and personal encouragement.

Still I understand, in a large class room, how is a teacher to gague
what each student has absorbed?
When a student is a consistent "failure" though in a regular school setting,
perhaps one might consider that it is the SCHOOL CONSTRUCT
setting up that particular young person for failure.
Perhaps it is the educational format itself that is "failing" the child.
(in the other sense of the word. umm, In both senses actually)

There should be alternative systems of education
for alternative learning types.
This to me is a total no brainer.
And as well, for those who know where their talents and interests lie
at a younger age. IMHO.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by UltraViolet

The whole "task" nightmare I understand.
But TAKS maybe stands for something I don't know.?

Hi Vi. The TAKS is the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. It's a standardized test that the state requires students to pass and penalizes schools, administrators, and teachers when too many fail. Kind of a separate issue from the homework rules, but the havoc wrought by having teachers teach "to the test" out of fear instead of thoroughly teaching basic material is yet another lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

[UltraViolet]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Hi Vi. The TAKS is the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. It's a standardized test that the state requires students to pass and penalizes schools, administrators, and teachers when too many fail. Kind of a separate issue from the homework rules, but the havoc wrought by having teachers teach "to the test" out of fear instead of thoroughly teaching basic material is yet another lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

Ahhhh, yet another standardized test to teach to.
Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Hi Vi. The TAKS is the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. It's a standardized test that the state requires students to pass and penalizes schools, administrators, and teachers when too many fail. Kind of a separate issue from the homework rules, but the havoc wrought by having teachers teach "to the test" out of fear instead of thoroughly teaching basic material is yet another lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

Sounds like the same thing as Indiana's Proficiency Tests

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Hi Vi. The TAKS is the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. It's a standardized test that the state requires students to pass and penalizes schools, administrators, and teachers when too many fail. Kind of a separate issue from the homework rules, but the havoc wrought by having teachers teach "to the test" out of fear instead of thoroughly teaching basic material is yet another lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

Reminds me of the MCAS of Massachusetts... except that our sophomores have to pass it in order to graduate.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Panda

If the teacher has to spend extra time on one person everyone else's education suffers.

Teachers don't spend their entire time in front of the whole class lecturing. The day is split up into different types of time. For example, when the class is working in small groups or when a bunch of students are working out math problems on the board, that's an opportunity for the teacher to deal with one or two students individually. And even if none of those times are available, the teacher can still work with a student on recess while his or her friends are outside playing.

Originally Posted by Panda

This is why I support smaller class sizes and classroom assistants. In my first and second year of high school I had to get extra help with my spelling, this was done by the classroom assistants, (I don't know if you have them in the states) and other members of the extra learning staff. There was a whole department dedicated to this sort of thing, they went into classes to help teachers with specific children.

But there's still a tradeoff even in that: whether you're talking about time, money, specialized staff or classroom space, devoting resources to one group of students means that those resources aren't available to the rest of the student body. What else could your school have paid for if it didn't have classroom assistants and extra learning staff? Smaller class sizes? Newer textbooks? A better computer lab?

But personally, I think these sorts of tradeoffs are okay. Different students will have different needs, and each will require different resources to educate.

Originally Posted by Panda

True but your example was for one person who passed after the tenth time and the first. I think everyone should get a second chance and under extreme circumstances a third chance. If it work you kept getting the same thing wrong you wouldn't last.

Depends on the circumstance. Say you're applying for a job that requires you to be certified in first aid: all that matters is the first aid certification itself. In the interview, you'll probably be asked whether you have your first aid; you might even be asked to show your certificate... but it would be very unlikely that the interviewer would ask you how many times you failed the course before you passed. All she cares about is that you know first aid now, not how you came to know it.

Originally Posted by Panda

So say you are a project manager and all your projects go over budget and are late you wouldn't be fired?

Depends. If it was happening because of repeated failures on the part of the PM, probably. If it was happening because the estimators and proposal writers kept giving the PM unrealistic budgets and schedules, the blame would probably go to them and not the PM.

Originally Posted by Panda

Well yes they will, generally the courses link together and the person who got a higher history mark is more likely to do better again next time.

I don't think you can be sure of that.

For example, take me: I got 8% (that's right, 8%) in grade 8 history. I hated my teacher and just decided to do no work at all in that class (note: I wasn't held back because at my school, you would pass or fail the year as a whole and to be held back, you needed to fail three courses). The next year, my first year of high school with new material and a new teacher, I did much better... better than some of my friends who scraped by with a bare pass the year before.

It's a mistake to apply population averages to individual people. On average, you may be right, but the actual individual results fall along a distribution, and not just at a discrete point. Some students will do better after failure. Some will do worse. Some students will do worse after just scraping by with their credit. The way we handle students should take into account the fact that they're all different people.

Originally Posted by Panda

I don't think that is a valid comparison. Like I said earlier I think a second chance is reasonable. If after that they still haven't passed then they don't have the ability and/or the commitment to pass.

I think it is.

Students fail classes for all sorts of reasons. If we are actually trying to educate kids, why would we treat all of these ones the same?

- the otherwise smart student who constantly skips school and isn't around to learn the material.
- the student who tries really hard, but just can't grasp the basic concepts.
- the student who would do okay if he applied himself a bit more.

If you look only at the end result, and only in terms of whether the student failed or not, then they all look the same... just as the unlit bulb looks the same in all three cases... but if your goal is to actually help the students to learn, why would you treat them the same?

Originally Posted by Panda

True some kids don't have the right attitude and that is why they fail, other's simply can't do it. However say my courses last year it was quite simple, if you couldn't keep up tough luck this is the speed we need to go at the finish the course.

Why do you think the course would need to slow down?

Originally Posted by Panda

It shouldn't damage the education of anyone else. To me it isn't a black and white world of pass and fail. It is A, B, C, D and Fail.

It seems inconsistent to me to realize that students who pass do so with a range of acheivement while at the same time ignoring this fact for students who fail. 49% is not equal to 0%.

[DallasApple]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Hi Vi. The TAKS is the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. It's a standardized test that the state requires students to pass and penalizes schools, administrators, and teachers when too many fail. Kind of a separate issue from the homework rules, but the havoc wrought by having teachers teach "to the test" out of fear instead of thoroughly teaching basic material is yet another lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

Not only that but regardless that my senior this year had passed all his subjects.In fact had enough credits to graduate in January ....He almost did not get to graduate..He had to take the TAKS math test four times..So hafter 13 years of school(I count kindergarten)...he was going to be denied a diploma and to graduate with his peers over the math TAKS...He was under so much stress it was pathetic.So were me and my husband..It was maddening..My son PASSED his highschool required math..Why in the hell should he have been held back???

For the year between 3rd and 4th if you dont pass you are not promoted..8th to 9th..and 11th to 12th..Adn it dosnt not matter what your grade point average is..

My son is gifted in many ways..But he SUCKS at math...He can speak 3 different languages(including Mandarin Chinese)...he's brilliant in history....but math he has struggled in since he was a tot...

Something needs to change..

Love

Dallas