Is Free Will an Illusion? (Kingdom, choices, choice, evolution)

[Ceridwen018]

Lol, yes Alaric, we actually do agree, I think.

With your example of the dog, I agree that the dog would be more prone to just eat himself, whereas the human would probably try and seek out alternatives...and then eat himself if none were found. Like you also mentioned, I agree that this has to do with the level of understanding. The dog has no idea what is happening to him, but the human does. If the human did not understand, ie, if the human was a small child, etc., would they then be more prone to respond like the dog?

This difference in response is without a doubt caused by an intelligence gap between the human and dog, but the point here is, I believe that dogs have the ability to think ahead just like humans. If you were to subject the dog to numerous periods of time when he would feel immense hunger, and then stop it before he ate himself, (thereby somehwat explaining the problem to him), I think it is possible that the dog would be able to eventually anticipate his problem, and instinctually come up with the best mode for survival.

[true blood]

ya know...I'm thinking you'd fit in perfectly if you lived in north korea
-those that feel free will is an illusion

[Ceridwen018]

true blood,

Haha, that was clever!...wait, no it wasn't...

We're not talking about democracy vs. dictatorship, or everyone's right to equality, here. We're talking about the basic concept of free will on a personal level. "To be, or not to be? That is the question."

[Alaric]

Originally Posted by Ceridwen018

If the human did not understand, ie, if the human was a small child, etc., would they then be more prone to respond like the dog?

Yes - if the human had no reason to doubt their feeling of hunger, they may well just keep eating, assuming that the feeling would just stop eventually. The more information you have, the more you learn to understand the extent of your ignorance, and the less faith you have in things, the more free you are, in effect. It's just scary - I think people who look for religion or strong leaders or whatever are just trying to rid themselves of the burden of the self and want to go back to the animal state of blind cause-effect. They're always looking for laws so that if this happens, they do that, without having to worry about thinking at all.

Originally Posted by Ceridwen018

...I think it is possible that the dog would be able to eventually anticipate his problem, and instinctually come up with the best mode for survival.

I don't think it can do both, but I think if the dog ignored its hunger, it would be to pursue another desire that eventually grew more powerful than the hunger while it was doing nothing but feeding. It can't envision itself in the future experiencing negative consequences of overeating.

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

The meme 'I have responsibility unto myself' itself still doesn't come from our free will...like all memes, 'it' gets inside us and makes us act in ways 'it' wants.

It doesn't come from our free will, it gives us free will! In a way, I think there is no 'it' (i.e. memes) vs 'us' - they are the same thing, we are the memes we currently use. Whether a computer is a Mac or a PC depends on the operating system, not the hardware (as far as I know). The hardware just decides the limits of the processing of the software.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by Alaric

The meme 'I have responsibility unto myself' itself still doesn't come from our free will...like all memes, 'it' gets inside us and makes us act in ways 'it' wants.

It doesn't come from our free will, it gives us free will! In a way, I think there is no 'it' (i.e. memes) vs 'us' - they are the same thing, we are the memes we currently use. Whether a computer is a Mac or a PC depends on the operating system, not the hardware (as far as I know). The hardware just decides the limits of the processing of the software.

Good point Alaric. But a computer does not have free will, because it must do what it is programmed to do. The computer, of course, wants to do what it is programmed to do. But it cannot program itself, and therefore a computer has no choice but to 'want' to do exactly what it is programmed to do. We have no choice as to what memes constitute 'us' (we can't program ourselves) and therefore we want to do only what we have been programmed to want to do.

Even if what constitutes 'us' is our programming itself (we are the memes), that still doesn't enable free will--first of all, a meme can't choose what meme it wants to be, it merely wants and does things on the basis of what it IS, and it can't decide what it IS. Secondly, if 'we' are the memes, and even if 'we' could enable free will, we are not enabling free will for 'us' (the memes)--instead, we are enabling free will for this whole new being that we are only a part of. A meme can't confer free will on itself of course, because a meme can't 'choose' what it is in the first place--it just follows directives based on its programming, as do computer programs.

[Alaric]

But what about a 'get more programming' meme? I participate here, and read, and see movies and so on, in a constant quest for new memes that will improve my life (that is, help the survival of my most powerful self-memes... *theme from twilight zone*). Like I've said, I agree with you about absolute free will - I'm just saying there is some free will associated with the memes that give me self-identity and allow me to recognise the fact that my beliefs and actions have direct consequences on my own well-being. I'm not at the mercy of my current memes if some of those memes require me to constantly revise what I do and what I believe in. That's as much free will as we can likely have, but it is more than, or at least very different to, what animals have. I can't take credit for not going on killing ramages, because I have no inclination to do that sort of thing right now, but if I did, I have collected enough memes up to this point that will hopefully stop me ever getting to that point.

[Ceridwen018]

Mmmm, Alaric, excellent point...I hadn't thought about that.

Basically, I interpret what you're saying as 'if this theory of meme's is true, why are we not all the same/have the potential to all be the same', aka, what gives us a unique identity.

Well, we certainly all grow up in different housholds, and are exposed to different memes in different orders and strengths...also, perhaps we have genetic tendencies? Well, be that true or not, out intelligence is certainly genetic, therefore making the patterns by which we interpret and process information/memes genetic. Hence, perhaps one is more likely to reject one meme over another compared to someone else simply because their brain works differently and reacts differently to that particular meme.

And what about this: cn we be born with memes? Or at least a stronger potential for one meme over another? For instance, I consider myself to be highly inquisitive-- however that does not seem like the kind of meme you would just pick up like any other.

[Alaric]

Inquisitiveness is not a meme, just a trait - a meme would be the idea that inquisitiveness did this and that or was good or bad, or a song about inquisitiveness - although I suppose these things could in turn make you more inquisitive. But I definately think that we have the propensity to accept some memes over others; not just by who we are, but also the situation we find themselves in (or our childhoods). I have noticed with myself that I have copied certain other people's ways of laughing, or ways of responding to questions, etc - but I am constantly bombarded with tons of different people's ways of laughing and behaving. What made me copy those few ones in particular? They must have just appealed to me somehow - they seemed to correspond well with the person I thought I was or wanted to be. I'm half Danish, half New Zealander, and have lived about equally in both countries, so the way I behave is quite different to those around me, from little things like facial expressions in certain situations to whole ways of thinking. But I also am aware of these things, and have some control over them. The memes I have built myself from up to this point does probably restrict the memes I accept now, though.

This whole idea about memes, self-awareness and free will is still pretty fuzzy to me, but I think it really is a step in the right direction. Also in telling why some people think and behave so differently to others. The person who learns which memes counter which other memes will rule the world! Being able to identify precisely which memes are the foundations on which all his other memes rest, which you then destroy, leaving him vulnerable to all yours. Like when Buddhist or Christian missionaries preached to the poor and the social outcasts - first they identify the basic beliefs (like hinduism), expose weaknesses in the meme, then replace them with memes that are much more appealing to their audience's situation, creating a horde of loyal acolytes. The really good ones work for a whole society; I think there are many memes that people need to agree on in a society in order for it to make a democracy work, for example - you can't have people thinking in terms of social castes. And getting people to behave well to others requires the meme that they have responsibility for their own actions, meaning they suddenly realise that they have to independently compare the compatibility of their own memes with the generally accepted ones of society.

Anyway, the point was that an identity memeplex develops, that gives you a self-identity, and a recognition of responsibility for your own actions and consequently the free will that we experience. We start out with the hardware (equipped with an instinctive drive to copy memes), which in the unique circumstances we find ourselves in acquires memes that best suit it, and develops an idea of 'self' as a kind of anchor point for these memes. This 'self' memeplex has to deal with the emotional drives of the body (needs for food, love, respect etc), and acquires other memes to help it do this (learn to share, be nice to grown-ups, don't talk to strangers). It experiences consequences for actions taken, and has to constantly revaluate and upgrade the memes in use to keep fulfilling the basic drives (not believing in Santa is painful, but is a weak meme and makes the others laugh at me). We still have wars between memes and drives (like people's weight problems - they are infected with the memes that obesity is bad and unhealthy, and they lose respect from others, but other drives tell them to eat). Memes also tend to get ranked, and other memes are judged by how well they fit the main meme. I don't know whether it should be classified differently, but I think there are certain memes that must be present to feel 'free' - I also think some people have more free will than others, but this I'm not sure of; perhaps it has something to do with how many different types of people you have the opportunity to compare yourself with (more viable choices of behaviour = more freedom). Any ideas?

[Mr Spinkles]

Alaric-- What you're saying here makes sense, I just don't consider it "free will".

The fact that we can sort through memes and 'upgrade' ourselves is nice, and it does help one feel like more than a mere robot that has the exact same programming and acts the exact same way all the time. But it still doesn't change the fact that we do what we are programmed to do--even if what we are programmed to do is sift through memes and find the 'best' ones.

[Ceridwen018]

We need to realize that we're all comprehending this within our human limitations. I mean, there's no real alternative, but we are certainly not 'robotic' in any way, though it may seem so when explained to us. It is all so complex-- there are unlimited possibilites and combinations. Everyone can be absolutely unique and still fit into this system.