What is the moment of conception? (soul, abortion, God)

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

No, I don't, but I'm interested to know what theists, and especially anti-abortion theists, think about it.

I think conception is different than the time the embryo has a spirit bound to it. I also think it's different times of the pregnancy term in which this happens. I believe that cany child that has a name has a spirit. and some children quite possibly don't have a spirit that has a name untill later in the term of the pregnancy. It just depends on the situation in the pre-existence.

Most people here seem to think that the moment of conception is when the sperm penetrates the egg, when the genetic material of the male and that of the female have not yet combined. The conceptus doesn't yet exist as one genetic entity, but as two separate genetic entities, so if we say that it is has a soul, we're saying (and I think you would agree with this part, but most Christians would find it problematic) that the soul exists before the physical and genetic entity that is to become a person does, and attaches itself to two separate genetic entities.

Conception if you are talkign in the order of gestation of an embryo would not have a spirit yet. I believe that the reason it requires a man and a woman to create new life is that no person is whole without the other. a Man can do nothign on his own, neither can the woman. the fact that it requires this merger of two separate genetic entitites should say something to what i am saying. We as memebrs of the LDS church believe we have the potential for godhood since birth, but no man or woman can achieve this glory by himself, Man and woman become god together. Symbolicly life cannot be created outside of this reproductive pattern. I'll discuss cloning later on -

Since about half of fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted before the woman ever knows she's pregnant, and adding in miscarriages and induced abortions, can we assume that heaven is populated chiefly with the souls of embryos and fetuses?

no, unless the spirit has been bound to a body they are still waiting to be born, all children that die before the age of accountability (age of 8) are saved in the celestial kingdom by default. all those children are going to be resurrected with everyone else and raised to maturity during the millenium. miscarriages, loss of fertilized eggs, only goes to show you the mortailty by which we are bound, life is not perfect in this state, nature is flawed and imperfect.

Since most believers insist that the blastocyst, at least, has a soul, what are the implications for identical twins? When the physical entity splits into two, does the soul also split, or does each twin have half a soul, or do both twins share one soul (resulting in the oft-touted bond between twins)?
In the case of Siamese twins, who have one body with two personalities, and may or may not have two hearts, two livers, etc., what happens to the soul? Does the soul separate into two before the body does? Does the personality reside in the brain, or the heart, or what? Does the existence of two personalities indicate the existence of two souls? (And if so, what about people with multiple personalities?)

I believe that anything acting on it's own separate accord, with a unique identity (mind of it's own, separate brains, ect..) has it's own spirit. These genetic mutations show us that nature, mortality is not perfect. the bod between twins i think would come from the fact that two souls are living for a few months together, bound to separate physical entities. I would assume that our spirit is bound to our brain. to me it would make sense that way seeign as we don't even use half of our brain's higher functions. Most siamese twins, even ones joined at the head, have separate brains, there have been cases where they have shared a brain but only one was concious, the other was merely dead wieght. having no life, no spirit no separate conciousness. Multiple personalitiy Syndrome can not be exclusively proven and never has been proven that it is a real phychological anomaly. but in the cases where peopel were convinced of someone's case of miltiple personalities, i would assume that it is a problem in the brain's neural pathways, studies of these patients show personalities of people they have previously known, seen, or interacted with, showing no complete originality of thier own.

[madhatter85]

If twins share a soul or each have half a soul, is it possible for one twin to be saved and the other damned?

I don’t believe that they can share a single spirit.

If they have separate, complete souls, what happens to the original, shared soul? Does one soul grow out of the other, such that one soul exists from the moment of conception, and the other develops later? Or does the original soul split into two new souls? If neither twinned soul is identical to the original soul, what happens to the original soul? Can a soul cease to exist, or does the original soul go to heaven, while the two new souls inhabit the bodies of the twins?

I don’t get what you’re saying. I don’t believe spirits can “split” either. I believe that when a spirit has an opportunity to come down to earth in the next available vessel it takes it.

Where does the soul come from in the first place? Does it arise spontaneously from the new genetic entity that forms inside the female? Does it exist previously, as the Mormons believe, as a "spirit child"? Is it the soul of a person or other animal that has died? Is it specially created by God and placed into the zygote?

Yes, I believe we existed before and that there was a plan for us to come down and receive a body just like our heavenly father has, that we wanted to be just like him and he made the way for us to achieve that.

If God creates the soul and places it into the zygote, does he place two souls into one zygote based on his foreknowledge that that zygote will eventually form twins? Until twins do form, can it be said -- since the zygote is believed to be a "person" -- that some people have two souls?

I believe he can do what he wants, yes if he wants a certain soul in a certain place to eventually do something he can control that himself.

Likewise, if one twin is absorbed back into the other twin (fetus in fetu), what happens to the soul of the absorbed twin? Does it go to heaven, or does it remain inside the body of its twin, so that the individual person now has two souls?

Assuming the fetus inside is actually dead and has its own separate consciousness, it’s still there, but if it’s not, assuming the fetus had a spirit bound to it, the spirit is awaiting to be resurrected with everyone else

If we clone a person, will the clone have a soul? If so, will it have a new soul, or will it share the soul of its parent?

We have been unable to successfully clone a human being. They have created “test tube babies” but they have died without being in a surrogate mother’s womb to term. Any body that is created is a potential vessel for a spirit. But as of now we can only create fetuses in the same way natural conception is achieved, but only in a test tube and by force, then placed into a serogate mother for further gestation.

And what about Jesus himself? Jesus cannot be a clone of Mary, since a clone of a female must be a female; Mary had no Y chromosome. Is the divine part of Jesus' genetic makeup actually fully human? Is he, as the Orthodox say, fully human and fully divine, or is he really half human and half divine? Does he have a regular human soul, or is the Holy Spirit his soul, as some heretics believed?

I believe he was our spirit brother, and the only one willing among all of us and the only one able to take upon him the sins of the world and save us all. And that because of his sacrifice for all of his brothers and sisters, Heavenly Father glorified his name through Jesus Christ. I believe that the “Virgin Mary” was a form of respect for the mother of our lord, that she was a virgin before being married to Joseph. And If I am wrong then that was the first miracle of his life.

And what about the alternate views held by many Christians, including some Popes, that ensoulment takes place not at conception but at quickening?

You mean at birth? What do you mean by quickening?

In short, the assertion that life begins at conception, and that the conceptus has a soul, seems problematic to me for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with my nonbelief in souls. It seems to me that such teachings have absolutely nothing to do with observed fact or even with (supposed) divine revelation, and everything to do with preventing behavior that the teachers find objectionable, regardless of what the truth may be.

I honestly believe that taking the life of an innocent because you “couldn’t keep your legs closed” is grossly wrong. It cheapens the value of life, which is a precious miracle unto itself.

[jamaesi]

It's when the kid is 18 and out of my house.

[Grappleberry Punch]

I've always been taught when the zygote is formed, aka sperm and egg meet aka fertilization. Never even realized it was a controversy for some people.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by madhatter85

You mean at birth? What do you mean by quickening?

"Quickening" is when the fetus starts to move around on its own.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Anti-abortion activists are always telling us that life begins at the moment of conception. But what is the moment of conception?

Also, what does it mean for life to begin? Is the conceptus a person? Does it have a soul?

I've always (and still do) consider the moment of conception to be when the sperm penetrates the egg. However, I'm sure that sometimes the event does not result in the birth of a baby.... I don't like to discuss abortion and even though I'm no longer a Christian, I still see abortion as ending an innocent life. I'll always believe that.

[rocka21]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I've always (and still do) consider the moment of conception to be when the sperm penetrates the egg. However, I'm sure that sometimes the event does not result in the birth of a baby.... I don't like to discuss abortion and even though I'm no longer a Christian, I still see abortion as ending an innocent life. I'll always believe that.

i can speak for all chrisitans, but I see that MOST abortions happen because of sin. Lazy , Godless people that like to jump in the sack and screw around with whoever ( not married) and then say " opps" and get rid of the " mistake".

yes, people have " rights" . you have the right not sleep around. If you do, you might kill an innocent child.

then we get into the , " what if its rape", or " what if the child has a defect", " what if the mothers life is in danger"? Those case's are few and far from the norm.

The norm is, " opps, me and johnny made a mistake. Time to go to the clinic".

we need more sex ed. we need more morals. we need people to stop being lazy, and watching Mtv real world and date bus, where the kids see sex as some pastime and not a coveant between man and wife.

ok my rant is over

[rocka21]

ok, i need to do a rant follow up. lOL

people make mistakes in life. we are human. I don't think it is fair to judge a girls choice.

the ULTIMATE choice is not up to the church, or anyone else , but up to the woman who is carrying the child.

I think instead of screaming at each other ( pro choice, and pro life).

we need to come togeather and see how we can decrease the aboriton number (of the lazy ones) through education. ( and IMO through the teachings of Christ).