University of Illinois drops Native American mascot. Are "Chief" mascots racist? (mystic, choice)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Ciscokid

I don't believe I ever said that ALL Illini indians were killed. However, they decided to flee to Oklahoma to get away from the Sioux indians that were attacking them relentlessly.

You were trying to paint this picture that evil white men killed them off.

While I may have been incorrect in the cause of the decline of the Illini, you and I both know that the cause of the decline of Native Americans in general is their systematic genocide by European invaders. The bottom line is that the situation is not the same as Troy and Sparta.

I'm not painting anyone as evil here. I have no doubt that if and when other groups have the ability to oppress and kill others they have done so. There is nothing inherently wrong with being white or of European descent. But this is the historical context in which this argument is taking place.

If one of my ancestors robbed and killed one of your ancestors, that would not make me evil. But if I then decided to take the image of your ancestor and make it a mascot, would you seriously interpret that as me honoring your ancestors? Honestly??! We cannot ignore history here.

And if I were to refuse to listen to your objections and call you "over-sensitive" or "PC" then I am guilty of something. Not of the initial murder, but of the refusal to recognize the repercussions of that murder.


Exibit A is the fact that the Peoria nation has asked that the school stop using the mascot. That should be the end of the argument.

Originally Posted by Ciscokid

American Indians are ignored by our society...oh there useful to run casino's, rarely we'll see one on the silver screen but other than that they're ignored. I think it'd be a shame to rid them from the spotlight they share with our football and basketball teams.

Again, why don't we let the Native Americans decide how they should be treated? Or do you for some reason think that you know better than them what is best for them?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by FatMan

Where have their complaints been ridiculed?? My initial introduction to this thread was to show that not all Indian tribes oppose Indian mascots. and I used the Seminole tribe as a reference. Personally, I think it is trivial to make a fuss about mascots, but I have nowhere ridiculed their complaints.

Given them less than 100% credence? Sure. But that is different from ridicule.

You think it's "trivial" to "make a fuss" and somehow you don't see that as ridicule. If someone genuninely hurt you and you pointed it out, and that person responded by calling your complaints "trivial" and "making a fuss" (ie - about nothing), would you feel that this was a respectful response?

As for the Seminole tribe, I agree with you. Let the NAs decide what is best for themselves.

[jamaesi]

The only thing mind-boggling is that as a white man, I have to keep living the sins of my ancestors, whether it be for killing Indians, promoting slavery, or the Holocaust.

You're not being asked to repent anything but merely realise that you have privilege that comes from their past actions. What they did is in the past, yes, but you're still reaping the benefits of it.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by FatMan

You phrase things as if there is a unified voice on this subject from Native Americans. There isn't.

No, I'm arguing that on a case by case basis the tribes who are involved be respected enough to be listened to.

In this particular case, the tribe affected has asked the school to stop.

That doesn't mean that other NAs can't weigh in on the subject because they ARE affected. But the bottom line here is that this tribe has asked the school to stop. That should be the end of the argument.

[FatMan]

Originally Posted by lilithu

You think it's "trivial" to "make a fuss" and somehow you don't see that as ridicule. If someone genuninely hurt you and you pointed it out, and that person responded by calling your complaints "trivial" and "making a fuss" (ie - about nothing), would you feel that this was a respectful response?

I think we have different interpretations on the definition of ridicule.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by FatMan

I think we have different interpretations on the definition of ridicule.

Fine, I withdraw the word "ridicule" and apologize for using it. What about my question?

If someone genuninely hurt you and you pointed it out, and that person responded by calling your complaints "trivial" and "making a fuss" (ie - about nothing), would you feel that this was a respectful response?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by spacemonkey

You've got this very wrong. College's that use Native American mascots do not combine the many diverse tribes into one as you suggest, that's the pros. Universities almost always use the name of a tribe that was once indigenous to the region they are located.

Just because they use the specific name doesn't mean that they aren't combining many diverse tribes into one.

When asked what tribe Chief Illiniwek's dance is derived from, Hardy said it didn't come from any specific tribe. "It's based on celebratory dances that the American Indians have performed as part of their traditions and culture," Hardy said. "It's not exact, but it's very similar to the kind of celebration dances that you see American Indians perform."
(http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/12164.html)

(Which begs the question, who is this guy to say that it's "very similar".)