4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible (Jesus, Creator)

Troy · #1 01-02-2007, 05:15 PM

4 Steps to Proving God of the Bible

I read multiple articles at a site called fstdt, a critique by Juliet (and someone who calls themselves Yahweh inappropriately) of the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible. It is a lengthy response to the 4 Step Proof, and I was praying how could I help them see the forest through the trees? So I sent them this message.

Simplicity is usually the key and as Gary Habermas says, use the minimal facts approach, that is, focus on the aspects that are central to your proof and put everything else aside for the time being, which you can come back to later. The problem with Juliet is she has gotten so far off the proof itself. She needs to come back to it, otherwise she would be guilty of trying to be couth, cunning, and attempting misdirection like a magician or charlatan selling snake oil. So let me bring you back and let you deal specifically with the proof itself instead of going on a tangent. Don't let Satan steer you away from the proof itself.

Step 1 is vital. It says, if anyone contends for an eternity of the past of cause and effects (and yes many have proposed this), then you would have had an eternity to be perfected (read the rest of the paragraph for why this is necessarily going to happen if there was an eternity of the past). However, since you still sin, you know there has not been an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Taking a sample of these past 6000 years in observing, quantifiably, the exponential progression of our conscience, you know it won't take another 6000 years to reach God's definition of sinlessness in the saved. It is not a valid excuse to say we are defining sin by God's terms. All you need realize is we do put people in jail with no mention of God because they sin. For our purposes all we need see is that sinlessness is at a bare minimum not making damaging mistakes such as mistreating another person or being unhealthy to yourself. Today, pagan nations don't usually throw their children into the fiery mouth of Molech. However, people do perform abortions and there are Islamic suicide bombers taught at the youngest of ages to be suicide mass-murders. Nonetheless, it is an exponential improvement in conscience since we would never commit to the actual throwing of the child into the idol of Molech's fiery mouth directly. Science and technology are NOT determinants of exponential improvements in conscience. Previously, it was common practice to marry multiple spouses. Today, this is frowned upon. Previously, it was common practice for two men to stand at a distance face to face in a gunslinging shootout. This would never be allowed today. Previously, men would be thrown into a stadium to be mauled by animals and gladiators would fight to the death. This is no longer conscionable. You could keep citing example after example.

Second step: someone says, ok fine, but what if the universe started all by itself at some point? Look at the cosmos and know it is very complicated. Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, there is always a cause and an effect. Therefore, since nothing, in more than a trillion examples, ever proves something happens without a cause, we can with the greatest of probabilities conclude everything has a cause. Since everything has a cause that is in known existence, then logic states that which is uncreated must have created. This is step 2 in the proof.

Step 3, which is misrepresented, does not say what Juliet says it said. Since the person, who can not overturn step 1 or 2, then tries to argue for something else, they try to argue against the attributes of some god, which is not the attributes of God of the Bible. Do you see how this is disingenuous? As the minimal facts approach is concerned, this proof does not care about other gods, but is merely proving God of the Bible, so if you want to put forth an argument, address it against God of the Bible and not trying to dispute some god.

Once the person appreciates step 3, they provide their one last stand at the ok corral-Step 4. They say, well why can't there be gods created gods for an eternity of the past so that your God is created also? This is just an offshoot of step 1, but instead of dealing with things in nature, it proposes gods created gods in the supernatural to explain our existence. This violates the principle proven in step 1 which say if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, whomever the constituents are, you still would have had an eternity to be perfected due to our observation today of the exponential progression cited. Try yourself to think of some more examples of exponential progression of our conscience in the saved. Note the unsaved do not want to change so that is why hell is created. In eternity hell takes care of them, and Juliet.

Do you see how the proof has remained the same proof since the beginning: not the beginning of my mentioning it, but with Moses recording it on papyrus. Ultimately the first person this knowledge was acquired by would be Adam since Adam was the first man made in God's image with a spirit of God-consciousness. We are all given the ability to know this, which is why even in a simpler form, it is known by just looking up at the stars and the sky to know that this is vastly intelligently designed. Do you see how the proof proves itself, does not make any claims on the inspiration of the Bible, but merely deals with the minimal facts approach? It focuses just on the 4 points. Now knowing this is true, that the uncreated created whom we can call God-the uncreated God would be God of the Bible since God is righteous, holy, pure and true. Such God would necessitate His mercy and that mercy is revealed when Jesus entered into creation to die on the cross for your sins to give you eternal life if you were willing to receive it. None compare to the love of Christ, He said He is God and proved it, fulfilling 62 prophecies (probabilities less than 1 in a trillion for any mortal man to get lucky), surrounding 40 writers over 1500 years, in a historical-religio context, showing God's redemptive design, and the apostles died for testifying to His resurrection and ascension. The resurrection of Christ is unique and best testified. No person is more well documented in antiquity. There are 42 writers, both Christian and non-Christian speaking of Jesus in the first 150 years of his death. This far outweighs the number of writers about the Emperor of Rome who died 11 years after Jesus died by a margin of 4 to 1. Skeptics have no considerable valid explanation against Jesus being God.

Majikthise · #2 01-02-2007, 05:25 PM

If that makes any real sense , I'll float a banana over Texas.

GeneCosta · #3 01-02-2007, 05:45 PM

I don't want to sound rude, Troy, but honestly this all sounds like mumbo-jumbo mashed with some purple prose. For example, you assumed from the start that matter in the universe is created and that sin is more than just a religious concept.

Mestemia · #4 01-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Step one is relying on the notion that the whole of mankind is the same religion with the exact same beliefs as you.

From this one simple faulty premise the rest falls through.

Zephyr · #5 01-02-2007, 06:59 PM

Step 1 - If there had been an eternity of the past of causes and effects, we would have had an eternity to be perfected without ergi, but since we still sin, we know there was not an eternity of the past of cause and effect. And thus we were created by Odin, given Har-none can compare! Psychological studies can be done to verify in just these past thousands of years the exponential progression of the conscience of mankind, that it will not take another few thousand years to reach ergilessness in the honorable: e.g. Odin works in long transitions from the Havamal period of a ton of years to the dispensation of knowledge of some years to the millennium of 1000 years. Each period exhibits a new grace. Did you notice anything special? This is an exponential progression. For example, we usually don't throw our work as sacrifices into the fiery mouth of the Yahweh-type god as many nations did in the past (and do so now) which Israel participated. The only place you really see this today is in all the Abrahamic faiths, teaching their kids to be argr effeminates. There are lots of examples: another is the murder rate per capita has continued to go down century after century.

Step 2 - Nothing in nature or time happens all by itself. It always has a cause. Therefore, since it must have a cause, always, we know the Aesir did it, given Odin. Don't let the cunning try to deceive you by saying what is true of Newtonian and Einsteinian Physics is not true of Quantum Physics just because of its complexity. That's called snake oil. You can catch a person in the act selling the snake oil when they desperately argue for their puff-the-magic-dragon stories, that it happens all by itself, lol.

Step 3 - If you wish to try to disprove this Proof, do not try to disprove some god, but keep your issues directed at God of the Edda-given Odin the Created Creator.

Step 4 - Just as Step 1 treats the natural, there is also the supernatural, in which there could not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods not creating gods; otherwise, you would have had an eternity to be perfected to be without ergi. Ergo, the Aesir did it, given Odin.

I did what I could...