Cause and effect? (POV, pastor, muslims, Roman)

[Djamila]

In much of Europe, mountains are strangely synonymous with poverty. The poorest areas in most cities are often those areas with steep streets.

It is a general rule of thumb in Italy, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Greece, and Turkey.

Dubrovnik, Croatia - for example - is one of the wealthiest cities in Europe, yet its hillside suburbs remain the poorest regions of the city:

A few hours west, Sarajevo, Bosnia, is no exception. The Dalmatian architecture may have given way to Ottoman architecture, but the poverty dynamic remains...

What is the reasoning for this? Any ideas?

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Djamila

In much of Europe, mountains are strangely synonymous with poverty. The poorest areas in most cities are often those areas with steep streets.

It is a general rule of thumb in Italy, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Greece, and Turkey.

Dubrovnik, Croatia - for example - is one of the wealthiest cities in Europe, yet its hillside suburbs remain the poorest regions of the city:

A few hours west, Sarajevo, Bosnia, is no exception. The Dalmatian architecture may have given way to Ottoman architecture, but the poverty dynamic remains...

What is the reasoning for this? Any ideas?

Just guessing. Maybe lack of a view apart from the neighbours washing?

[Hacker]

Originally Posted by Djamila

In much of Europe, mountains are strangely synonymous with poverty. The poorest areas in most cities are often those areas with steep streets.

It is a general rule of thumb in Italy, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Greece, and Turkey.

Dubrovnik, Croatia - for example - is one of the wealthiest cities in Europe, yet its hillside suburbs remain the poorest regions of the city:

A few hours west, Sarajevo, Bosnia, is no exception. The Dalmatian architecture may have given way to Ottoman architecture, but the poverty dynamic remains...

What is the reasoning for this? Any ideas?

What do you think the reasoning is for it?

[Djamila]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Just guessing. Maybe lack of a view apart from the neighbours washing?

In Dubrovnik, that is a factor that does exist - but it also exists in most middle-class areas as well. Only the most expensive homes, belonging to most wealthy Dubrovnicanins, are on the waterfront.

In Sarajevo, the opposite is true. The homes on the hills, including those in the photos above, generally have windows facing the direction the photographer's back is facing, which all have spectacular views.

tlcmel: I have no idea. Truly I have no idea. There is nothing I could say that exists there that doesn't exist in at least a few examples of wealthier areas.

[Fluffy]

In the UK there has always existed the idea of the rich South and poor North (and this is untrue for the most part today although obviously the South does have the advantage of the capital)

The earliest point I have studied our history has been pre-Roman. The cultural divide was across pastoral and arable farming. Initially the majority of the population lived in hillforts but the South, with an excess in arable land, produced more food and so outgrew these farms and moved into lower settlements. The North, with a greater amount of mountainous land, was forced to rely on pastoral farming and so remained untouched by the process of urbanisation.

Now it would be an over simplification to say that it was entirely the lay of the land which determined the prosperous South. The South was also, obviously, much closer to technologically advanced Europe and so the subsequent trade and influx of immigrants also allowed them to outcompete the North.

The Romans controlled their vassal states by keeping the population in relatively defenceless towns and cities and then protecting them with forts and fortresses meaning that the power was safely in Roman hands. So when the Romans invaded, the disparity in the number of towns in the North and South continued.

Obviously today, most British cities and towns are of Roman origin and therefore their location determined by the Romans. If the above process happened throughout Europe then this might go some way to explain the poverty in more hilly areas.

To generalise a bit further, after Roman dominion, the richer, arable (ie non-hilly) areas would still be more economically important and therefore would likely become the power base for whoever filled the vacuum. If these then became the centre of dominating the surrounding hilly lands then you would see an influx of money into these places via taxation.

[Scuba Pete]

In the US, the Appalachians are known for it's destitute people. In fact that region is synonymous for being backwards. The higher up you go, the worse the problem gets, though now with rich people coming into those areas and buying up the scenic land, they are having a small economic boon.

This has always been the case and is reflected in the grave yards. When I was in Franklin NC, I visited the grave yards in the area. The older the grave the more likely it was to be a youngster (life was tough back then). Now go up to the top of the mountains and look at their grave yards. WHOA!!! They were comprised almost entirely of children, up until about 75 years ago. I was simply astounded at how many of these graves were toddlers or even infants.

[Djamila]

Wow, Fluffy! Thank you so much for that post.

The only thought that comes to my mind specifically about what you've mentioned is from the history books we learned in school. I remember, verbatim, the line:

"Sometimes it was safer to live on the hills, at other times, in the valleys. The neolithic inhabitants of the valley of Sarajevo, the people of Butmir, were known for their extraordinary artistic culture yet we lack any evidence of a significant, urban settlement."

It went on to explain the first Roman settlements in the valley of Sarajevo were both at the very base of the valley - Imunisipia (modern-day Ilidza, suburb of Sarajevo), and Kotorac (modern-day Kotorac, a village near Sarajevo). Both of these settlements grew to quite a significant size for Balkan standards during the Roman era.

The fortress of Hodidjed, the defensive position for the valley of Sarajevo during the Roman era, was located on a hill top and commanded a view of the entire valley. The oldest neighborhoods in modern Sarajevo all surround Hodidjed, on the hill top. In fact, you can literally say the farther away you move from Hodidjed, the more modern the city becomes.

****

Completely different line of thought now...

Today, Bosnia still has a group of nomadic Muslims known as Highlanders. They live mainly in the upper peaks of the Bijelasnica Mountain and it's foothills. There are permanant settlements there, like Lukomir ("Europe's Oldest Village"), where tourists flock to see, literally, what life was like in Bosnia during the medieval era. These people still live that way.

The interesting thing is, despite that Bosnians are largely Balkan - having mixed with Romans, Illyrians, and Ottomans – the Highlanders are near completely Slavic. They are fair-skinned, usually have blonde hair and blue eyes, and are on average six to eight inches taller. Every Bosnian town has legends of lost Highlander women, who wandered down into the towns below, and were thought to be angels (or demons).

Now, what interests me about this is - why are those who lived the highest in the hills, the most Slavic? Obviously we have a situation where Slavs lived in the valleys, and in the hills - while all others lived only in the valleys. Why? Is it even relevant?

[klubbhead024]

Perhaps it is becuase the rich feel they should not have to walk steep inclines, so they dump it on the poor

[Djamila]

By the way, the Highlanders also speak an archaic form of Bosnian.

Imagine if you could climb a mountain in Northern England and people still lived in huts, herded sheep, and spoke like, "Thou art welcome among our people, kind sir. Hath you not found yourself what nourishment thou woudst be pleased by?"

That's what it's like for us. Really freaky.

Review from W. Phillips:

"Sitting on soft, colorfully embroided pillows filled with wool; drinking strong, black coffee from miniature cups; smiling politely as warm and friendly locals try to carry on a discussion with me using only sign language - at first glance, I could be anywhere in Bosnia, but I am not. I am where the mountains of Bosnia once reached to the sky, and have been slowly beaten back by time ever since. I am in Europe's oldest community, the village of Lukomir. Here young women wear traditional Bosnian garments dating from medieval times not for tourists but because its the only clothing they know how to make. Old women, many of whom still write their names using medieval symbols, place flowers at tombstones that date back more than half a millenium, in cemeteries twice as old. Even my trusty Bosnian guide Goran - who was born and raised just a few kilometers downhill in the capital, Sarajevo - seems out of place and foreign here. He is no more able to understand these village women's ancient dialect than I am."