The Great Comic Debate (Harry Potter, America, experience, marriage, bless)

[cardero]

There is a world of difference between honest, informed, and responsible inquiry into the history of a period or a people and comic book nonsense.

Having unfortunately experienced both, I would have to say fornication is to full on married sexuality what comic books are to great literature.

There have been some offhanded remarks made by posters concerning the literary value and existential worth of comic books lately and though I do not hold offense personally with these members, it is clear that these comments come from posters who are unaware of what is exactly available through the thousands of strips, comic magazines, trade paperbacks and resources that are published yearly.

It is not because comics are my religion or that I enjoy collecting or creating comics that this offense arises; it is because there are many talented and dedicated and active individuals in the medium who are making a difference to the genre and producing great works to something that has already deserved the respect of their literary peers and is quickly catching up to and in some cases surpassing other forms of entertainment.

Comics are an accepted staple of society. It is a blessed marriage between illustration and the written word and I cannot stand idly by and have all comics reduced to juvenile illiterate nonsense.

Comics are written and drawn and produced mostly by adults and never have been just for kids.

Comics are read by both men and women.

Just because a comic is about superheroes doesn't mean that it isn't smart and interesting.

Comic trade paperbacks are now available in libraries and many can not be listed in the children’s section.

Comics are a complicated format that can express ideas, create characters, address issues, and tell stories in ways unmatched by other forms,

Comic books can also be powerful sources of political parable and social commentary.

Comics are still being used to teach children to read and to teach them that reading can be fun.

I understand that comics may not be some people’s cup of tea and I really do not expect much of a “great” debate on this subject but using a derogatory analogy to degrade this genre is no longer an available option. The only thing it proves it that the person making this comment has not explored and discovered the joy, the excitement, the value that comics can provide.

Links to be considered:

http://www.michaelchabon.com/archives/2005/03/greasy_kids_stu.html
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=tcp&article=1759
http://www.theeagle.com/faithvalues/columnists/071704clearfield.php

"Comics are words and pictures, and you can do anything with words and pictures."--Harvey Pekar, author of American Splendor

[Booko]

Originally Posted by cardero

Comics are an accepted staple of society. It is a blessed marriage between illustration and the written word and I cannot stand idly by and have all comics reduced to juvenile illiterate nonsense.

Of course not, though I could comment that Theodore Sturgeon's Law applies to graphic novels and comics as much as anything else.

From the mighty Wiki:

He [Sturgeon] made his original remarks in direct response to ill-conceived attacks against science fiction that used "the worst examples of the field for ammunition." Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc., are crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crud is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artistic artifacts do.

[michel]

I think that the idea of 'rubbishing' the value of comics is a kind of literary snobbishness.

I remember being told that one day, I was running through the house playing with a friend and shouted out "One for all, and all for one!!". I saw my Father's chest swell with pride; he looked at me with respect; he said "Ah, so you are reading "The three Musketeers ?".....to which I replied "No, I saw it in a Tintin comic strip............"

I don't think I have seen him look so 'deflated' as when he heard that.

A comic is a form of art; cartoons are even more so. I used to have (but we ran out of room) an entire collection of "Giles" Cartoons (if you haven't heard of Giles, you can see some of his work at http://www.gilescartoons.co.uk/).

Cartoons are a wonderful way (in newspapers especially) of using artistic licence to make a point; often humurous, and with that special ability to accentuate people's appearence in a way that no other form of writing (nor drawing) would achieve.

Down with literary snobs!

[Phil Osophy]

Comics are beginning to gain recognition as an art form, and this is reflected in the prices that some of them now command. Whether they will ever gain full recogition as "proper" art is another matter. I hold cartoons in high regard and certainly consider them to be "proper" art. Giles was a very fine artist and is one of my favourites. Thelwell also has a big following, and there is some info on him here:

http://lambiek.net/artists/t/thelwell.htm

Shame that neither of them are still alive and working.

[evearael]

Anyone with doubts about graphic novels as a medium needs to read Maus by Art Spiegelman.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by cardero

There have been some offhanded remarks made by posters concerning the literary value and existential worth of comic books lately and though I do not hold offense personally with these members, it is clear that these comments come from posters who are unaware of what is exactly available through the thousands of strips, comic magazines, trade paperbacks and resources that are published yearly.

Most likely they are unaware, or they read some of the less intelligent issues of whatever. You will not find me debating the points you made, but I would say that the majority are not very well written or well drawn. Many comics are nothing but big chested, scantily clad women with weak plotlines and one-dimensional characters. But this is not to say all of them are this way.

Originally Posted by cardero

It is not because comics are my religion or that I enjoy collecting or creating comics that this offense arises; it is because there are many talented and dedicated and active individuals in the medium who are making a difference to the genre and producing great works to something that has already deserved the respect of their literary peers and is quickly catching up to and in some cases surpassing other forms of entertainment.

Yes, I think this is one of the reasons that Hollywood has suddenly decided to swamp us with superhero movies. Some of the movie studios finally realized they can get intriguing and powerful plotlines as well as interesting characters from comics, and so many of the best TPBs still remain untapped. I remember when they first made The Crow into a movie, I was like, "Yesssss". Still waiting on Sandman, Death: The High Cost of Living, Grendel: War Child, Watchmen, and the original Neil Gaiman The Books of Magic (which is incidently predates the Rowling books and is the real source of "Harry Potter" (see below).

(Tim Hunter and owl "Yo-Yo" from The Books of Magic...look familar don't they!)

Originally Posted by cardero

Comics are an accepted staple of society. It is a blessed marriage between illustration and the written word and I cannot stand idly by and have all comics reduced to juvenile illiterate nonsense.

I think a lot of people are equating comic art with how it was several decades ago. Anyone who thinks there's no artistic value seriously needs to just step into a comic store and grab almost any book off the shelf...art standards are so high now that you practically need to have a degree from a major art school just to get a job in the field.

Originally Posted by cardero

Comics are written and drawn and produced mostly by adults and never have been just for kids.

I've heard that lately the market is mostly aimed at adults since today's kids would rather play video games instead of reading panels.

Originally Posted by cardero

Comics are read by both men and women.

Although more one than the other for sure.

Originally Posted by cardero

Just because a comic is about superheroes doesn't mean that it isn't smart and interesting.

Totally. Waaaaaaatchmen...

Originally Posted by cardero

Comic trade paperbacks are now available in libraries and many can not be listed in the children’s section.

Originally Posted by cardero

Comics are a complicated format that can express ideas, create characters, address issues, and tell stories in ways unmatched by other forms,

Yep.

Originally Posted by cardero

Comic books can also be powerful sources of political parable and social commentary.

Yep.

Originally Posted by cardero

I understand that comics may not be some people’s cup of tea and I really do not expect much of a “great” debate on this subject but using a derogatory analogy to degrade this genre is no longer an available option. The only thing it proves it that the person making this comment has not explored and discovered the joy, the excitement, the value that comics can provide.

Originally Posted by cardero

True that.

[nutshell]

Comics, like any art form, is full of rubbish with a few wonderful jewels. In the post you quote, "great literature" is mentioned, but it takes a lot of reading rubbish books to find that piece of great literature. The same is true for visual art. I've gone to art galleries and have been completely dissappointed until I turn the corner and WOW! a beautiful Sam Park painting jumps out at me.

[Random]

Comic books are an artform, arguably much more so than prose writing. They are the perfect blend of Word and Image, right there on the pages. I'm a huge fan of Marvel and DC, collected editions and graphic novels. The medium has always deserved more respect than it regularly gets from mainstream critics, though many have now woken up to its brilliance and noted the wide range of possibilities it offers.