No such thing as nothing (Latter-Day Saints, reject, evolution, creation)

[Kungfuzed]

Is there such a thing as nothing?

If I show someone an empty box and ask them what's in it they will say "nothing". Being the smart alec that I am I'll say "Well, there's air in the box isn't there?". Even if I take the box into space there is still something in the box. I'm no scientist but I've heard that space is full of particles being constantly born and annialated. Even if we found some empty space there would still be the fabric of spacetime in the box.
If I ask my daughter what she is doing she'll usually say "nothing". I'll then ask her if she's breathing or sitting or standing.

I wonder if there really is such a thing as nothing. If there is, how would we prove it?

What sparked my question were some statements in another thread that asked how the universe could have come about from nothing. To this I ask, how do we know there ever was a nothing to begin with? Where do we get the concept of nothing?

[finalfrogo]

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

Is there such a thing as nothing?

If I show someone an empty box and ask them what's in it they will say "nothing". Being the smart alec that I am I'll say "Well, there's air in the box isn't there?". Even if I take the box into space there is still something in the box. I'm no scientist but I've heard that space is full of particles being constantly born and annialated. Even if we found some empty space there would still be the fabric of spacetime in the box.
If I ask my daughter what she is doing she'll usually say "nothing". I'll then ask her if she's breathing or sitting or standing.

I wonder if there really is such a thing as nothing. If there is, how would we prove it?

What sparked my question were some statements in another thread that asked how the universe could have come about from nothing. To this I ask, how do we know there ever was a nothing to begin with? Where do we get the concept of nothing?

Yes, there is nothing. atoms are the smallest unit of what is typically considered matter. Atoms are constructed of particles, which blink in and out of existence. But between atoms, there really is nothing, at least nothing yet detected.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

What sparked my question were some statements in another thread that asked how the universe could have come about from nothing. To this I ask, how do we know there ever was a nothing to begin with? Where do we get the concept of nothing?

Well, I don't know if you remember back from when you were LDS, but not all Christians believe the world was created out of nothing. The Latter-day Saints believe it was created out of chaos, which makes a whole lot more sense to me.

[Kungfuzed]

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

Physically it is necessary to distinguish three things: the vacuum, the emptiness and the nothing. The vacuum is a space not filled with any matter. But it can contain physical fields. The emptiness already would be a space void of matter and any other thing-fields, light, even waves. But the emptiness is still empty space, that is, it possesses the capacity to fit something, but it does not encompass any physically tangible entity. Although, complete emptiness does not exist in the Universe since all the space is filled with gravitational fields and the light that travels through it, neutrinos and other particles and fields, even rarefied are contained within it as well. But not even space itself exists in nothing, and it does not have the ability to be filled with something. Nothing is not a place. Even an infinitesimal point is in certain place of the space (that it is the set of the points, that is, localization possibilities). For definition, when one speaks of existence, one speaks about the existence of something. And nothing is not something. The nothing is a "sign", a linguistic representation of what one thought to be the nothing. Only one knows representations of it, but these representations have mental origin, since the nothing does not exist. The definition of "nothing" is only given by means of the negation of everything which exists. Therefore the nothing is not defined or appraised positively (a definition is to say what the thing is), but only represented, making the relationship between its symbol (the word "nothing") and the idea that one has of the nonexistence of something. The "nothing" does not exist, but it is conceived by operations of the mind.

[Kungfuzed]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, I don't know if you remember back from when you were LDS, but not all Christians believe the world was created out of nothing. The Latter-day Saints believe it was created out of chaos, which makes a whole lot more sense to me.

I never heard that. There were many members in my ward that believed in the literal interpretation of the Bible, each day being 1000 years. There were others as well that believed in evolution to a certian degree. It was one of those things that was concidered to be flexible or open to interpretation, like caffiene.

[finalfrogo]

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

Physically it is necessary to distinguish three things: the vacuum, the emptiness and the nothing. The vacuum is a space not filled with any matter. But it can contain physical fields. The emptiness already would be a space void of matter and any other thing-fields, light, even waves. But the emptiness is still empty space, that is, it possesses the capacity to fit something, but it does not encompass any physically tangible entity. Although, complete emptiness does not exist in the Universe since all the space is filled with gravitational fields and the light that travels through it, neutrinos and other particles and fields, even rarefied are contained within it as well. But not even space itself exists in nothing, and it does not have the ability to be filled with something. Nothing is not a place. Even an infinitesimal point is in certain place of the space (that it is the set of the points, that is, localization possibilities). For definition, when one speaks of existence, one speaks about the existence of something. And nothing is not something. The nothing is a "sign", a linguistic representation of what one thought to be the nothing. Only one knows representations of it, but these representations have mental origin, since the nothing does not exist. The definition of "nothing" is only given by means of the negation of everything which exists. Therefore the nothing is not defined or appraised positively (a definition is to say what the thing is), but only represented, making the relationship between its symbol (the word "nothing") and the idea that one has of the nonexistence of something. The "nothing" does not exist, but it is conceived by operations of the mind.

Ah, I never thought of light and waves and such. Well, if "nothing" is meant as a lack of matter, and the fundamental particle of matter is the atom, then yes, there are spaces without atoms.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

I never heard that. There were many members in my ward that believed in the literal interpretation of the Bible, each day being 1000 years. There were others as well that believed in evolution to a certian degree. It was one of those things that was concidered to be flexible or open to interpretation, like caffiene.

Regardless of what the members of your ward believed, what I just stated is official doctrine. We totally reject the doctrine of an ex nihilo creation. Just thought you might find that interesting.

[Kungfuzed]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Regardless of what the members of your ward believed, what I just stated is official doctrine. We totally reject the doctrine of an ex nihilo creation. Just thought you might find that interesting.

Cool. When did they decide that? I haven't been active since the mid 90s but now that I think about it, I do remember some teachings that matter has always existed. I'll have to get out my Pearl of Great Price and check on it. It might have been in there. I'm actually at work right now.

[Kungfuzed]

If there ever was a great nothing that everything came from I could understand the confusion. The way I see it there was never a nothing for everything to rise out of. The notion that some theists try to pin on athiests, that the universe came about out of nothing, is rediculous.

Any athiests in the forum believe the universe came out of nothing? Speak up please.