Equal Opportunity For Everyone? (America, prophecy, Article)

[finalfrogo]

"Equal Opportunity For Everyone" has become widely known as an American slogan, but how well does this country adhere to it? Are opportunities really distributed equally among the entire population? If you are born poor, what are the chances that you won't live poor and die poor?

[sparc872]

Here is a great link to some information on the issue at NYTimes.

The graphic shows that the majority of people in either the top or bottom 20% generally remain where they started out. This is not such a surprising trend as a person born into an uneducated poor family will most likely remain uneducated and poor. Likewise, a highly educated rich person will be able to afford the education for their children, as well as pass along capital to help them start on their own.

Education is one area where we are failing extremely badly. Children in the poorest districts in the US are nearly 3 grades behind children in the richest districts.

[finalfrogo]

Originally Posted by sparc872

Education is one area where we are failing extremely badly. Children in the poorest districts in the US are nearly 3 grades behind children in the richest districts.

That fact is perhaps the worst detriment in the system, because so much of a person's career depends on education.

[sparc872]

That fact is perhaps the worst detriment in the system, because so much of a person's career depends on education.

It's a shame isn't it? I just finished reading an article someone posted a while ago called the abolition of work. Great read.

It irks me to think that we have allowed our schools to be shaped around a corporate model. Another great article you should read is Unschooling: Self Directed Learning is Best.

I am all for the homeschooling movement, but our society is so structured around an 8 hour workday for both parents that even homeschooling is quickly becoming less and less viable for most families; especially the poor ones.

[c0da]

There has been calls by some ministers over here in the past few years for universities to pay not so much attention to predicted grades of students when going over applications, but their socio-economic status (incidentally, it is results day tomorrow for 17 and 18 year olds in the UK).

People within the universities have called it 'playing god' with the university application system, and to be honest, I think they have a point. I went to a state school, and I don't think the education provided is particularly poor, or the system particularly hard on working class kids. In my opinion, universities shouldn't lower their academic standards, just to create a 'cultural mix' - university isn't for everyone.

[Ciscokid]

Originally Posted by finalfrogo

"Equal Opportunity For Everyone" has become widely known as an American slogan, but how well does this country adhere to it? Are opportunities really distributed equally among the entire population? If you are born poor, what are the chances that you won't live poor and die poor?

Chances have to do with how hard you work. I've heard of many stories of poor immigrants coming to America [legally even], starting a small business and making some good coin.

America is the land of opportunity, the thing is, you do have to work hard for it.

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Ciscokid

Chances have to do with how hard you work. I've heard of many stories of poor immigrants coming to America [legally even], starting a small business and making some good coin.

America is the land of opportunity, the thing is, you do have to work hard for it.

Yes, but if your parents have been beat down by the system (and it's nothing more than self-deception to think it doesn't still happen), how will they of broken spirit instill in their children anything other than the expectation of the same? How are we to ensure that this expectation does not become self-fulfilling prophecy? It is NOT ENOUGH to say that "oh, America is totally open to anyone who's willing to work hard" because it is NOT YET TRUE.

Yes, the inherent tough-spiritedness of some folks will allow them to pull themselves out of the gutter, but frankly it is totally unrealistic to expect someone who has been spat upon by society all their lives to do so, especially when they are young. We are fighting an entrenched cultural mindset on the part of the underclass that it doesn't matter how hard they try, because it won't work for them. We can't expect them to change that mindset when their daily life only reinforces it. The children, who do have the opportunity in school (for the most part), have to be encouraged by someone to see that they can achieve beyond this mindset, but we CANNOT expect them to just realize this on their own. Without addressing this change in mindset, all the school dollars in the world won't fix the problem. Kids that are unmotivated due to constant exposure to this mindset will, like their parents, be convinced that it won't make a difference anyway.

My anger here is not directed at you, CK, but I hear this spouted too often by those who were born into a solid middle class background, yet deny that there still exists any hardship for the economic underclass in the country.

[Ciscokid]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

Yes, but if your parents have been beat down by the system (and it's nothing more than self-deception to think it doesn't still happen), how will they of broken spirit instill in their children anything other than the expectation of the same? How are we to ensure that this expectation does not become self-fulfilling prophecy? It is NOT ENOUGH to say that "oh, America is totally open to anyone who's willing to work hard" because it is NOT YET TRUE.

Beat down by what system? I fully believe that if you are persistant and work hard good things will come. 10 years ago I was working at McDonalds full time and a shoe store part time. I decided to get into the computer field so I started to learn any way I can. I took my first computer job at a Bank [with no qualifications] at 8 bucks an hour. Today I make 30 plus good benefits, if you work hard at something you have pretty good chances of making it.

Originally Posted by BrandonE

Yes, the inherent tough-spiritedness of some folks will allow them to pull themselves out of the gutter, but frankly it is totally unrealistic to expect someone who has been spat upon by society all their lives to do so, especially when they are young. We are fighting an entrenched cultural mindset on the part of the underclass that it doesn't matter how hard they try, because it won't work for them. We can't expect them to change that mindset when their daily life only reinforces it. The children, who do have the opportunity in school (for the most part), have to be encouraged by someone to see that they can achieve beyond this mindset, but we CANNOT expect them to just realize this on their own. Without addressing this change in mindset, all the school dollars in the world won't fix the problem. Kids that are unmotivated due to constant exposure to this mindset will, like their parents, be convinced that it won't make a difference anyway.

Who is "them" and "they"??

Originally Posted by BrandonE

My anger here is not directed at you, CK, but I hear this spouted too often by those who were born into a solid middle class background, yet deny that there still exists any hardship for the economic underclass in the country.

I wasn't born into a porn household but I know my parents were on food stamps at one point when I was young. I attended public schools and my parents never paid for my post high school training. I never finished my college degree but I got other training and certifications from my employers.

[sparc872]

I wasn't born into a porn household but I know my parents were on food stamps at one point when I was young. I attended public schools and my parents never paid for my post high school training. I never finished my college degree but I got other training and certifications from my employers.

Well then, I would say you were relatively well off.

From the US Census Bureau:

The official poverty rate in 2004 was 12.7 percent, up from 12.5 percent 2003.
In 2004, 37.0 million people were in poverty, up 1.1 million from 2003.
Poverty rates remained unchanged for Blacks (24.7 percent) and Hispanics (21.9 percent), rose for non-Hispanic Whites (8.6 percent in 2004, up from 8.2 percent in 2003) and decreased for Asians (9.8 percent in 2004, down from 11.8 percent in 2003).
The poverty rate in 2004 (12.7 percent) was 9.7 percentage points lower than in 1959, the first year for which poverty estimates are available (Figure 3). From the most recent trough in 2000 both the number and rate have risen for four consecutive years, from 31.6 million and 11.3 percent in 2000, to 37.0 million and 12.7 percent in 2004 respectively.
For children under 18 years old, both the 2004 poverty rate (17.8 percent) and the number in poverty (13.0 million) remained unchanged from 2003. The poverty rate for children under 18 remained higher than that of 18-to-64-year olds (11.3 percent) and that of people aged 65 and over (9.8 percent).
Both the poverty rate and number in poverty increased for people 18 to 64 years old (11.3 percent and 20.5 million in 2004, up from 10.8 percent and 19.4 million in 2003).
The poverty rate decreased for seniors aged 65 and over was 9.8 percent in 2004, down from 10.2 percent in 2003, while the number in poverty in 2004 (3.5 million) was unchanged.

If it were really equal opportunity for everyone, then some people wouldn't have to work extra hard to make it to the top. Explain to me why there is such a huge difference between the number of blacks and hispanics in poverty and the number whites and asians in poverty.

Our 'system' has been set up around stereotypes that segregate. That sort of segregation still exists, although not in any bright and shining 'No Blacks Allowed' signs. The injustices incurred on past generations trickle down into new generations, that is why we have families that are cyclically poor, while others remain rich.

From nces.ed.gov:

In 2000, young adults living in families with incomes in the lowest 20 percent of all family incomes were six times as likely as their peers from families in the top 20 percent of the income distribution to drop out of high school (table 1).

There has got to be something to explain this. You can't just say they didn't try hard enough, otherwise it would be even across the board. Poor children can oftentimes lack the parental guidance to succeed in life. If you come from a poor family, that stigma will be there with you, as well as the potentially low self esteem, for quite some time.

We are products of our environment, if we grow up in poverty, then that is what we know. That is how life is. If you have that perspective planted into your head at a young age, that you are lower than everybody else, then how can you possibly rise above them?

[Ciscokid]

Originally Posted by sparc872

If it were really equal opportunity for everyone, then some people wouldn't have to work extra hard to make it to the top. Explain to me why there is such a huge difference between the number of blacks and hispanics in poverty and the number whites and asians in poverty.

You have to prove to me that blacks or hispanics, on average, have to work "extra hard" to make it to the top. I don't believe they do.

Asians have an incredible work ethic and are generally very career oriented. I know an asian gal that already has her bachelors in engineering but she's going for her masters now. Her parents aren't paying for it either.

Every time I see a black man or woman in a nice business suit and driving a decent car I have evidence that anyone can make it. You need to get off your butt though.

I would also suggest that many black people, especially younger ones are given the impression that they are owed something BECAUSE they are black. That mindset is absolutely crippling.

I work and live in Central Pennsylvania and I know that if you walked around with a racist attitude you'd get your arse fired in a heartbeat. Speaking of work, my company just sent an email out a couple weeks ago informing us that one of our employees just got his American citizenship.

I'm going to guess that he had to assert himself and work hard for what he has today [he's a programmer and making decent money]. I bet he didn't sit around waiting for someone to hand him something for nothing.

Originally Posted by sparc872

Our 'system' has been set up around stereotypes that segregate. That sort of segregation still exists, although not in any bright and shining 'No Blacks Allowed' signs. The injustices incurred on past generations trickle down into new generations, that is why we have families that are cyclically poor, while others remain rich.

I have no doubt that there are racists about in our society, I have no doubt that there are some racist people in places of power who pass on non-whites. But if you are trying to convince me that society as a whole is against non-whites and are trying to keep "a brother down" you might as well end the converstation here. That is just insane.

You had better start explaining to me HOW ANY blacks and hispanics make it if it's so hard? The day that people stop playing the role of a victim will be the day they set themselves free and open themselves up to success.