The (un)Ethics of Veganism (moral, choice, communion, moral)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Quoth_The _Raven

I've never been swayed by arguments that I'm lacking in moral fibre for eating meat (gods know, I'm lacking moral fibre in so many areas ) and I sincerely doubt I ever will.

Oh, I pretty much figure when someone wants to walk a mile in my moccasins, they're welcome to make pronouncements about what I eat. Of the very few people who've ever lectured me on the subject, I just hand them a blank sheet of paper and ask them to make me a menu plan for a week.

Usually after about 2 days worth of meals, they get the point.

[jamaesi]

Some vegans may be sexist, classist, ageist, or self-righteous... but I don't believe veganism itself is.

I also don't get the sexist part, or the ageist.


(I was vegetarian for six-seven years and started when I was young, pescetarian for two years, omnivore for one, and now pescetarian again...)

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

What do you think?

I've seen a few blogs, essays, and forum postings arguing the inherent evil of vegetarianism and those who practice it. None have been compelling. There are two reasons I've encountered so far that persuade people of truth in this assertion; the behaviour of a tiny fraction of moralistic veggies, and a previous exposure to egoism as expressed by the likes of Ayn Rand that argue that anything altruistic is evil.

[MidnightBlue]

I'm not a vegan, and have no immediate plans to become one. Right now, I'm working on moving to pescatarianism, and I'm not finding it easy. However, I don't know what "the idea that the vegan ideal is tantamount to self-righteousness" could possibly mean. If all vegans are self-righteous, doesn't it follow that anyone who deviates from the norm, and has ethical or compassionate reasons for doing so, is self-righteous? Are we going to propose that it's morally unacceptable to have reservations about the inhumane ways animals are raised for our food supply? If I don't want eggs from chickens that have been debeaked and kept in crowded conditions, does that make me morally inferior to someone who has no problem with that? I don't think Kathryn Paxton George wants to go that far. The blogger says:

She also defends ethical, aesthetic semi-vegetarianism – eating meat and plants grown locally and healthfully, in moderation, and taking pleasure in food. Being closer to the source of my food makes it more difficult to deny what I’m doing when I eat an animal. I become more intimate with the cycles of life and death. And because I love my dog so deeply, and think every day about what it means to give him a good life, I also think about what it means for other animals to have a good life.

I can tell you from experience that eating organic, local, humanely raised meat is far more expensive than many people (us included) can afford. It's feasible for us to reduce our consumption of meat. It's not feasible for us to eat meat at every meal when that meat costs $6 a pound and up. Kathryn Paxton George may have the luxury of choosing the best meat, but not everybody does. If her ideas are accurately reported in that blog, she sounds like an elitist herself.

I'm moving toward pescatarian, but I'm not unaware that fish, shellfish, and plants are living beings as well as mammals and birds are. Life requires the death of other living things to sustain it, and veganism doesn't change that.

However, I think people who are vegans for ethical reasons are to be commended. I don't expect to join them, but neither do I expect to join people like Kathryn Paxton George who find it satisfying to justify their omnivorism with disdain for vegans.

I'm struggling with my diet on several fronts right now: Trying to lose weight, trying to phase out meat, and trying to eat healthy and organic, all without busting the bank. It's not easy. I don't expect ever to give up eggs and dairy completely, and probably not seafood, either, but I still don't see how setting up vegans as self-righteous elitists is going to help me.

[Fluffy]

I've never understood vegans, as I see humans' omnivorous state as natural and thus, part of the natural order.

I have never understood how one can categorise something has natural and unnatural. What are the specific attributes that something must have in order to be natural?

I'm a vegetarian but I don't see this as any more or less natural than if I were omniverous.

If Kathryn Paxton George wishes to attack veganism then trying to support such fantastical claims would be a poor place to start. I assume that she is only attacking the concept that "it is wrong to eat anything that comes from an animal" as opposed to "it is wrong for me eat anything that comes from an animal". I have found that the majority of vegetarians/vegans (or just about anybody who has moral dietary beliefs) fall into the latter category which would immediatly limit her argument significantly.

[jamaesi]

I can tell you from experience that eating organic, local, humanely raised meat is far more expensive than many people (us included) can afford. It's feasible for us to reduce our consumption of meat. It's not feasible for us to eat meat at every meal when that meat costs $6 a pound and up.

Not to nitpick, but eating meat at every meal isn't a "natural" things humans have done until recently and probably isn't the healthiest for one to do...

But yay, another pescetarian.
(But most of all, yay, someone who knows what a pescetarianism is!)

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by jamaesi

Not to nitpick, but eating meat at every meal isn't a "natural" things humans have done until recently and probably isn't the healthiest for one to do...

I guess "every meal" was an overstatement; at my most carnivorous I haven't usually eaten meat more than twice a day. My mother says that when she was a girl her family usually only had meat on Sundays, and she thinks it was far more healthy.

Originally Posted by jamaesi

But yay, another pescetarian.

Not yet, but working on it.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by jamaesi

Not to nitpick, but eating meat at every meal isn't a "natural" things humans have done until recently and probably isn't the healthiest for one to do...

My old vegetarian boyfriend from college is now a pescetarian. He had to travel for work, and being a vegetarian just wasn't working.

Anyway, I know from my family's experience that when one set of my grandparents came over from the Netherlands it was customary to get meat on Sunday mostly. When the Dutch immigrants got over here, it was a sign of great wealth to have meat at every meal, and even in my mother's generation it seems well nigh impossible to call it "dinner" unless there's a meat course.

The thing is, we don't need a slab of meat for dinner to get enough protein. From what my doc tells me, I have to eat 5 times a day. 3 meals with 3 oz protein and 2 snacks with 1.5 oz protein. Goodness, try to get a 3 oz steak in a restaurant sometime. 1.5 oz is just a handful of nuts, for those who can eat them.