What's a just system of gov't? (punishment, Earth, soul, minority)

[Booko]

This is taken from another thread:

Originally Posted by robtex

There has never been any such thing as a "benevolent dictatorship" and nor could there likely be one. One man's pleasure is another man's harm. Free market competion is a much fairer and equatable system than one goverened in a socialistic dictatorship.

Originally Posted by booko

I don't equate a "benevelont dictatorship" like the one Michel alludes to with socialism.

And free market competition is not fairer if you're on the bottom of the economic heap. All that happens is that a lot of people owe their soul to the company store. There's nothing fair about that.

So, what are some systems of gov't that humanity has tried in the past?

What are the pros and cons of each?

Is there anything we haven't tried that might be worth a look?

[evearael]

Are we discussing the government's power structure or economic system?

[BrandonE]

I think I mentioned it last week in another thread, but I'd love to see a system like that laid out in The Dispossessed. Basically, it's an anarchistic commune. There is no formal government, or at least no head of state. Of course, it's also a total pipe-dream.

I just skimmed a study guide for the book at http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/science_f...possessed.html and I'm clearly going to have to read the whole book again.

[Capt. Haddock]

In Uruguay, where I was born, there is a law in the constitution that says that any law the government passes can be put up for referendum if enough citizens sign a petition requesting it.

In the past there have been referenda about privatisation of state companies, amnesty for human rights violators under the military regime and various other things.

I think that system is copied from a similar law in Switzerland.

Anyway, it certainly makes you feel more empowered as a citizen, and it puts a check on the elected representatives coming under the influence of bribery and "lobbies".

Also, voting over there is considered a civic duty and is therefore mandatory.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Capt. Haddock

In Uruguay, where I was born, there is a law in the constitution that says that any law the government passes can be put up for referendum if enough citizens sign a petition requesting it.

In the past there have been referenda about privatisation of state companies, amnesty for human rights violators under the military regime and various other things.

I think that system is copied from a similar law in Switzerland.

Anyway, it certainly makes you feel more empowered as a citizen, and it puts a check on the elected representatives coming under the influence of bribery and "lobbies".

Also, voting over there is considered a civic duty and is therefore mandatory.

great ideas i like it

[Mike182]

the ideal, in my opinion, would be a council of wise philosopher kings, who would rule in a compassionate, fair, and just way, but this ideal is never going to be real. - this ideal was proposed by Socrates (i think, i could be wrong...)

i must say i agree with Booko, the only people who complain about free market rule are those who don't have any money, and they have no real voice to complain with, because of their lack of money - fair? not in my opinion.

socialism is also an ideal way of governing, but nigh in impossible to implement in the way it would need to be implemented to be socialism... an ideal beyond our reach.

Dynastic rule is inevitably founded in the idea that some are superior to others, and while there are many who are superior in a variety of ways, who your parents are is not a valid way of accessing such traits.

Anarchy removes all element of punishment and consequence, which is unhealthy for living, learning and growth in a social environment, in my opinion.

that leaves us with democracy.

democracy 1) true democracy, every decision is put to the voting public (everyone should be able to vote) - majority rule, however that removes the minority rights, and makes the decision process lengthy and unfeasible.

democracy 2) representative democracy - the voting public vote for a governing body, which elects its own party leaders (pretty much the UK system)

i think representative democracy, combined with a bill of equal rights for all, with all religious authority removed from government, is the best way of governing a country, and we can achieve it.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Personally I'd like to live in a progressive Socialist Technocracy with Energy Accounting replacing the Price System. I daydream about this as a just and rational form of government and I know full well this is highly idealistic (tips hat to Mike182). Its a crazy daydream. It would never happen. So Democracy it is (tips hat to Mike183 again) and I sincerely hope we learn to use it wisely.

Short soundbite from Chomsky on what he thinks this would mean: "Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that a private license yields public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can. At this stage of history either one of two things is possible. Either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community interests, guided by values of solidarity, sympathy and concern for others, or alternatively there will be no destiny for anyone to control. As long as some specialized class is in a position of authority, it is going to set policy in the special interests that it serves. But the conditions of survival, let alone justice, require rational social planning in the interests of the community as a whole, and by now that means the global community. The question is whether privileged elite should dominate mass communication and should use this power as they tell us they must -- namely to impose necessary illusions, to manipulate and deceive the stupid majority and remove them from the public arena. The question in brief, is whether democracy and freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided. In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than values to be treasured; they may well be essential to survival."

Originally Posted by BrandonE

I think I mentioned it last week in another thread, but I'd love to see a system like that laid out in The Dispossessed. Basically, it's an anarchistic commune. There is no formal government, or at least no head of state. Of course, it's also a total pipe-dream.

I just skimmed a study guide for the book at http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/science_f...possessed.html and I'm clearly going to have to read the whole book again.

What a wonderful book that was! It had a big influence on me as a teenager, as did the Wizard of Earthsea books. Ursula Le Guin was a Taoist dontchaknow *laughs*

[Booko]

Originally Posted by evearael

Are we discussing the government's power structure or economic system?

Now there's a question. Sometimes they're quite intertwined.

But let's start with the gov't and add the economic structure as a refinement, I suppose.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Capt. Haddock

In Uruguay, where I was born, there is a law in the constitution that says that any law the government passes can be put up for referendum if enough citizens sign a petition requesting it.

In the past there have been referenda about privatisation of state companies, amnesty for human rights violators under the military regime and various other things.

How does a referendum end up so people can vote on it?

Sounds rather a neat idea, to give the people the ultimate veto power.

Also, voting over there is considered a civic duty and is therefore mandatory.

How does that work? How is it enforced? I'm assuming there are exceptions for people who are too ill or incapacitated in some way.