Forgiveness............... (Jesus Christ, Jehovah, doctrine, church, atheist)

[michel]

I put this thread in 'general' discussions, because I wanted to discuss as much the human to human aspect (which will involve atheists just as much as theists). For the theists, forgiveness can only be given after we have recognised our sin, and asked for forgiveness.

To the non theist, I guess the same applies, but instead of saying "I am sorry" to God, I guess you say it to the person you have hurt, if you feel contrition, and hope to receive an acknowledgement of forgiveness from the other person.

This, I think, comes under the same umbrella of 'paying compliments to children (especially so), and, of course others. It is quite easy to get into a habit of accepting good behaviour from children as 'natural, and nothing to crow about', whereas (I can certainly raise my hand in guilt to this) Pouncing on their 'bad deeds'.

The Christians (I think I am right in understanding) must accept that God will forgive us, no matter what we do, so long as we confess our sins, feel true remorse, and make a determined effort to change our ways. I have a great problem with this, because I am so hard on myself, that I find it extremely hard to forgive myself for any wrongs I have done in the past. Taking into account that I am 57, I still feel remorse about wrongs that I did in my teens; this is a permanent black cloud over me. While I can accept the Church Doctrine that God will forgive me, I can't forgive myself.
I think, therefore, that if I had been an atheist, my way of looking at wrongs that I had committed would be just the same (in my mind).

So, to sum up; for both theists and nontheists; how easy do you find it to forgive:-
a) yourself
b) others (and please describe what forgiveness entails. So many times have I heard the "I can forgive, but I can't forget")
c) does forgiveness (while still remembering the hurt) qualify as 'true forgiveness', or is it only a half way compromise ?

I'd like your input (and, if you wish to include actual events that occurred to you as examples, that is fine).

I personally think that it is much easier to forgive others, than it is to forgive myself; does that strike a chord ?

[jehovahsservant]

u can never be truly forgiven if u continue to do or practice the same sin and if your an atheist whose forgiveness are u searching for i thought atheist don't believe in god so by saying that u give reference to their being a god.

[michel]

Originally Posted by jehovahsservant

u can never be truly forgiven if u continue to do or practice the same sin and if your an atheist whose forgiveness are u searching for i thought atheist don't believe in god so by saying that u give reference to their being a god.

for i thought atheist don't believe in god so by saying that u give reference to their being a god.

I don't think you are right. Cannot an atheist mother forgive her atheist Child for taking money from her purse ? what would you call that, if not forgiveness ? (no mention of God, just sheer one person agreeing to completely erradicate the act of the theft).

[jehovahsservant]

true but the atheist mother had to learn the art of forgiveness from somewhere or someone and that comes from god jehovah and his son jesus christ she can learn forgiveness from no where and that where humans learned it.

[jehovahsservant]

she can't learn forgiveness from no where and thats where humans learned it

[michel]

Originally Posted by jehovahsservant

true but the atheist mother had to learn the art of forgiveness from somewhere or someone and that comes from god jehovah and his son jesus christ she can learn forgiveness from no where and that where humans learned it.

Well, I think we will have to disagree; I expect (trying to put on an atheist 'hat') that forgiveness to an atheist is not being angry about the child's behaviour any more; does that make sense ?

[jehovahsservant]

im signing off look at john 17:3 and learn of mankinds purpose and look at psalm 83:18 and find out who god really is goodbye im tired.

[michel]

Originally Posted by jehovahsservant

im signing off look at john 17:3 and learn of mankinds purpose and look at psalm 83:18 and find out who god really is goodbye im tired.

Goodbye, have a good rest!

[PureX]

Originally Posted by michel

So, to sum up; for both theists and nontheists; how easy do you find it to forgive:-
a) yourself
b) others (and please describe what forgiveness entails. So many times have I heard the "I can forgive, but I can't forget")
c) does forgiveness (while still remembering the hurt) qualify as 'true forgiveness', or is it only a half way compromise ?

I think that forgiveness and repentance are two different subjects. Forgiveness, for me, comes from understanding that we are all confused, frightened, selfish, and ignorant of the feelings of others, on many occasions. And as a result, we behave in ways that cause ourselves and other people to suffer unnecessarily, and other people do the same to us. Understanding this about ourselves and each other, we can begin to appreciate the need for forgiveness. If we don't learn how to forgive ourselves and each other for who and what we are, we're going to become very angry, frustrated, and hateful human beings. We NEED forgiveness to live with ourselves and each other. And the better we get at forgiveness, the more peaceful, and joyful we'll all become.

Repentance is something different. Repentance is the process of acknowledging the harm we've caused others through our own fear, ignorance, and selfishness, and then attempting to correct it by making amends to those we've harmed and then by changing our behavior.

Often, when people have difficulty forgiving themselves or others, it's because they have confused forgiveness with repentance, or tied them together unnecessarily. And as a result, they feel they can't forgive until repentance has been achieved. But this is not so, and it's important that we understand this.

Originally Posted by michel

I personally think that it is much easier to forgive others, than it is to forgive myself; does that strike a chord ?

Then perhaps it would help to see others as reflections of yourself, and yourself as reflections of them. Certainly, we are all equally guilty of behaving badly toward others out of fear and ignorance and selfishness. You're little better or worse than anyone else.

Keep in mind that it's just as egotistical to assume you're worse than everyone else as it is to assume that you're better. And holding yourself to a "higher standard" of behavior than you hold everyone else to is an expression of just such egotism. The first step in becoming humble is becoming honest about one's own reality. And honestly, you aren't really any better or worse than anyone else, and you don't really deserve to be held to any different standard. You deserve to be forgiven just the same as anyone else.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by michel

So, to sum up; for both theists and nontheists; how easy do you find it to forgive:-
a) yourself
b) others (and please describe what forgiveness entails. So many times have I heard the "I can forgive, but I can't forget")
c) does forgiveness (while still remembering the hurt) qualify as 'true forgiveness', or is it only a half way compromise ?

Michel,
I'd have to agree that we are our own worst critics...or best critics? I find it harder to forgive myself because I have very high standards and while, I seem willing to make excuses for why others don't live up to those standards, I won't make excuses for myself. Since I've become a Christian, however, I am getting better at forgiving myself and moving on. For if God can forgive me, then by what right do I have to not forgive myself?

As for "forgive and forget"....let's clarify "forget". I will never believe it if someone tells me that once they forgive, the thought of the actual hurt is wiped from their memory. If you have a halfway decent memory, that memory is still in there.

For example, 25 years ago one of my roommates decided that her car should be in the garage, so she went and got my car keys and, while backing my brand new car out of the garage with the door open, hit the edge of the garage, causing the hinges to bend so that the door wouldn't completely close. She played dumb, insisting that she hadn't hit anything and that she had no idea why the door wouldn't close. I found out the truth when I took it into the shop. When I confronted her, she still denied she had anything to do with it and I ended up paying the repair bill.

Obviously, I have not forgotten the incident nor did I forgive her for many years. When I thought of the incident it was with bitterness and anger and thoughts of wanting revenge. I doubt I would ever have forgiven her if I had not become a Christian. There was no motivation *to* forgive. Christ said that we are to forgive because we have been forgiven. I know that I've forgiven her, despite the fact that I haven't forgotten, because the bitterness and anger are gone.

So "not forgetting" is not a halfway compromise depending on how you feel when the memory pops up.