What Is True Humility? (moral, moral, Biblically, Christianity, Christians)

[Sunstone]

To at least some of the ancient Greeks true humility was claiming no more, nor any less, than you deserved.

For instance: If you were kind, then in the appropriate circumstances, you should admit you were kind, but not claim to be any kinder than you were. Again, if you had won an award or honor, then in the appropriate circumstances, you should admit to having won it, not making any more or any less of it than it was worth. This was considered true humility.

False humility was to claim more or claim less than you deserved, than was your due.

Somehow after the rise of Christianity, however, the notion of true humility was altered. In the Christian system, true humility was to always claim less than your due. To always put others before you. To stand without pride at the back of the room, so to speak.

An interesting contrast, I think.

What do you make of these two notions of humility?

Is one superior to the other? If so, why?

What would happen if everyone where humble in the ancient Greek sense of the term? What would happen if everyone were humble in the Christian sense of the term?

Is this a fair description of humility in ancient Greece and in later Christianity? If so, why? If not, why not? Is there a better description of either?

What do you make of Nietzsche's notion that the ancient Greeks had it right for superior men, while the Christians adopted what he called "a slave morality"? In light of these two notions of humility was Nietzsche on the money, or had he drunk too much wine the night he came up with his idea?

What is genuine humility to you?

[Scarlett Wampus]

I like Nietzsche's (reaffirmation) that the noble man respects his enemies, and that "respect is already a bridge to love". However I draw a line between the notion that enemies make one stronger by presenting an opposition to your will and what Nietzsche saw as the reason for such respect: That you respect for your enemy because they are like yourself and not because you value their inherent right to exist. I personally feel narcissism is the opposite to true humilty and Nietzsche's conception of noble ethics was very vulnerable to, if not openly inviting, narcissistic pride.

[Feathers in Hair]

I grew up with the second example of humility. I can understand the thinking that goes along with it all to well, I'm afraid. (Everyone besides me deserves recognition and honor- I deserve none.)

I think the first example is the one I'm needing to emulate at this point in my life. If I were offering advice to others, I'd ask them to be able to recognize their own inherent talents, gifts and admirable qualities rather than to put dismiss these things. I need to start doing it myself. Comparing the two, I'd say that the Greek idea of humility is more akin to 'Recognize that there is no person that's more or less worthy than you', while the other can tend to lend itself to thinking the same phrase, except omitting the very important 'more'.

[standing_on_one_foot]

Probably somewhere between those two. It's not always necessary to be proclaiming your strong points, even if they're true. Pretending they don't exist isn't right either (I have a friend who really can't take a compliment, it's extraordinarily annoying). I suppose I'm more with the Greeks, when this is done properly. Nothing wrong with claiming what you deserve; it's the seeking it that can be problematic.

Good example: "That was kind." "Thank you."
Bad example: "Gee, I'm a kind person. Did I ever tell you about the time I..."

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by FeathersinHair

I grew up with the second example of humility. I can understand the thinking that goes along with it all to well, I'm afraid. (Everyone besides me deserves recognition and honor- I deserve none.)

I think the first example is the one I'm needing to emulate at this point in my life. If I were offering advice to others, I'd ask them to be able to recognize their own inherent talents, gifts and admirable qualities rather than to put dismiss these things. I need to start doing it myself. Comparing the two, I'd say that the Greek idea of humility is more akin to 'Recognize that there is no person that's more or less worthy than you', while the other can tend to lend itself to thinking the same phrase, except omitting the very important 'more'.

I agree with your assessment that the ancient Greeks had a definition of humility more conducive to being realistic about who you are, while the Christian definition seems to lead to self denial and even self abuse.

Which do you suppose is more compatible with the moral imperative, "Be true to yourself"? Or, more precisely, which view of humility is more likely to lead us to alienation from ourselves? Indeed, can either view actually do that? Does it matter which view we adopt?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

To at least some of the ancient Greeks true humility was claiming no more, nor any less, than you deserved.

That's what I think. Humility is recognizing the way others are. It's recognizing that so-and-so is better than me at basketball. It's recognizing that I am better than so-and-so at shot putting. It's simple recognition of comparisons.

I think your description of Christian humility is an over exageration, but not truly false.

I think the "Greek" way is better, and more biblically based.

Your questions remind me of Highlights for kids, though not in a bad way. Always asking, "If not, why not?"

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

To at least some of the ancient Greeks true humility was claiming no more, nor any less, than you deserved.

For instance: If you were kind, then in the appropriate circumstances, you should admit you were kind, but not claim to be any kinder than you were. Again, if you had won an award or honor, then in the appropriate circumstances, you should admit to having won it, not making any more or any less of it than it was worth. This was considered true humility.

False humility was to claim more or claim less than you deserved, than was your due.

Somehow after the rise of Christianity, however, the notion of true humility was altered. In the Christian system, true humility was to always claim less than your due. To always put others before you. To stand without pride at the back of the room, so to speak.

The false humility you describe may be on the rise, I'm not sure about it as it seems not to have changed much in my lifetime. Examples of the Greek true humility abound, as do examples of both types of false humility. I think the idea of Christian humility is not to have low self-esteem or be overly self-deprecating, although there is a lot of false praise out there to be dealt with as well. To me Christian humility refers to the idea that we do not know everything and so should not go around acting like we do.

Pride is not always bad. For example taking satisfaction in work done well can make us feel proud in a good way. It's good to tell your children when you are proud of something they have accomplished, but not good to tell them that for every little thing or make the comments by contrasting them to other kids. Like everything else, pride and humility can be overdone or indulged in poorly/unskillfully.

What would happen if everyone where humble in the ancient Greek sense of the term? What would happen if everyone were humble in the Christian sense of the term?

As you've defined it the Greek sense of the term is clearly better. I object to the way you define 'Christian humility,' sounds more like Christian humility according to Ayn Rand.

The weakness I see with the Greek approach to humility is that we often a poor judge of our own accomplishments. How we view our work and contributions to society are heavily influenced by our culture and upbringing, our status in society. For example women in my mother's generation, and I think still in my generation, are much more likely to place less value on their work in the home or in care-giving situations. On the other hand, young stud football stars are likely to place a lot of value on winning in competitive sports, something I would consider a rather low-level contribution to society. Guess it would work best in very egalitarian societies. Know of any?

Is this a fair description of humility in ancient Greece and in later Christianity? If so, why? If not, why not? Is there a better description of either?

I have no idea what humility was like in ancient Greece. Where are you getting this information from?

What do you make of Nietzsche's notion that the ancient Greeks had it right for superior men, while the Christians adopted what he called "a slave morality"? In light of these two notions of humility was Nietzsche on the money, or had he drunk too much wine the night he came up with his idea?

I think that just maybe Nietzsche suffered from a tad of intellectual pride. Also, I would call the Christian notion 'servant morality.'

What is genuine humility to you?

The more I learn the more I realize how little I know. Knowing that all of life is a gift. Acting in charity as much as possible.

[Buttercup]