Is culture just changing, or is it on the decline? (ritual, tradition)

[GeneCosta]

This mostly concerns Americans, though others may join along.

A good debate I want to see is this: Do you believe culture is just changing (this could mean for the better or for the better and worse under certain circumstances), or do you believe that culture is on the decline? I have seen a lot of comparisons to the Roman Empire before it collapsed. I have also seen comparisons to the Enlightement. Which side do you take, if any?

I personally believe culture is changing, and for the better. I will post my reasons later. For now I'm off to dessert.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by GeneCosta

This mostly concerns Americans, though others may join along.

A good debate I want to see is this: Do you believe culture is just changing (this could mean for the better or for the better and worse under certain circumstances), or do you believe that culture is on the decline? I have seen a lot of comparisons to the Roman Empire before it collapsed. I have also seen comparisons to the Enlightement. Which side do you take, if any?

I personally believe culture is changing, and for the better. I will post my reasons later. For now I'm off to dessert.

I think we're in the middle of a large, and global, transition period.

There are many areas where traditional institutions seem to have lost their ability to unify people, and in these ways, culture is in decline (e.g. exceptionally nasty politics, increase in uncivil behaviour, rise in failed marriages, there are plenty more)

In other areas, things are on the uptick, and so the comparison with the Enlightenment might be apt. Just look around here for examples. There is far far more tolerance and even acceptance for cultural and religious differences than there was even 30 years ago, much less 100 years ago. We are no longer content to do things just because the previous generation did them that way. We're more likely to think about what value there may be in those traditions, and sometimes find the lack of value in them as well.

I look forward to reading your reasons.

Hm...dessert...yes...blueberries

[gnomon]

Which culture?

I think there is a perception of hip-hop culture (whatever that may fully entail) in increasing due to the number of individuals influenced by it. Definitely there is the increase in music sales, the switch from hearing either country music or 80's rock blaring out of car windows to hip-hop and rap.

I think there is a rise of general, and generic, spirituality as opposed to traditional Christian beliefs.

Many things considered counter-cultural, such as body-modification, are on the rise and actually becoming mainstream. Actually I think the whole culture of punk, goth and other subcultural movements from the 70's and 80's have turned into ridiculous cliches. Which just shows, relatively, how fast Americans can absorb a new musical, fashion and spiritual trends.

Culture, in and of itself, cannot decline. It is merely a descriptor of the various religious beliefs, political systems, musical tastes, etc. of a particular group of people. It's rather difficult to describe what describes American culture. Certain designations may dominate for a certain time period before it is replaced. I think new ideas are transmitted faster and more easily accepted thanks to the increased means of communication and modern transportation.

I will state that what passes for pop culture in this country is rather...disappointing. Unfortunately, all those disappointments are on the rise as well.

[GeneCosta]

In other areas, things are on the uptick, and so the comparison with the Enlightenment might be apt. Just look around here for examples. There is far far more tolerance and even acceptance for cultural and religious differences than there was even 30 years ago, much less 100 years ago. We are no longer content to do things just because the previous generation did them that way. We're more likely to think about what value there may be in those traditions, and sometimes find the lack of value in them as well.

I agree. You also brought up a good point I should address. There definately will not be a clear answer in this. "Culture" can be cut however you'd like.

I believe we're in a transition period of something grand, a transition larger than the Neolithic Revolution. In the 1900s we saw technology, science, medicine, politics, religions, war, public awareness, free-thought, and population reach heights never before seen in history (for that matter, never before dreamed in history). Look back at the past and you'll see humanity has been gradual in everything having to deal with it, aside from the Neolithic Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and perhaps the Renaissance. Yet even those events do not compare to now.

We're caught in the middle of one of the biggest shifts in culture since mankind first existed, and it is only natural that conflict has risen. There was conflict from the Neolithic Revolution with nomads and settlements, and now there is conflict with those of us who want to hold on to "old thoughts" rather than "new". In society you can see a clear split between people: those who believe firmly in the segragation of sex (maybe not legally, but socially), and those who want to make us entirely equal, something that wasn't even happening during the stage of hunter-gathering. The problems we see with women displaying themselves as "sex gimmiks" is, in my opinion, the extra-hard push against the old image of women. While it appears to not be productive for our time, I think it is necessary. I believe it is a push away from the conservative view on sex that will eventually settle once the conservative view starts to decline. I use this same scenario for race. Reverse discrimination is happening because it is that extra-push from the old thoughts. I think we're seeing it settle down; with the talk of ending affirmative action now returning.

We're also shifting from under-protective to over-protective. Personally, I think political correctness is better than not recognizing equality. I think going with "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas" is better than going with "Happy Christmas... or you die/don't get elected/are shunned from society."

Is relliance on medicine bad? To an extent, yes. But isn't rellying on science better than myth? Yes drugs are a new problem, but that's because science has now made all these new types of drugs available. Science is also helping us in the drug scene. The number of cigarette smokers is on the decline, and society is more harsh towards alcoholics than before.

[standing_on_one_foot]

Eh, mostly it's just changing. These things always do. There are good changes and bad changes that come with time. People have always been asking this question, though, which I find oddly entertaining. One of the few unchanging things

[Sunstone]

First, a quibble, Gene: I don't see how this thread can be mainly for Americans because everyone on this board, American or not, resides in a culture that is undergoing rapid, extensive change. So, I think interest in this topic might be much broader than just Americans.[/quibble]

I think culture is merely changing rather than on the decline. By "culture" I mean culture in the anthropological sense of the word as behaviors passed down from one generation to the next through learning. It's hard to tell sometimes which current behaviors will be passed down to the next generation, and so qualify as culture. But much of what we see around us was indeed passed down from a prior generation and already qualifies as cultural behavior.

Like Booko, I think we're witnessing cultural change on a world wide scale. Human nature, however, is based in genetics, so far as I understand it, and basic human nature isn't going to change. We confront the cultural changes of today, like we confronted the Neolithic Revolution of the past, with a paleolithic brain. We will always, for instance, be a religious animal, although the specific forms our religious expression takes will change dramatically since the specific forms are largely cultural. So, while we're seeing a huge world wide cultural change, some things will remain basically the same.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by gnomon

Culture, in and of itself, cannot decline. It is merely a descriptor of the various religious beliefs, political systems, musical tastes, etc. of a particular group of people. It's rather difficult to describe what describes American culture. Certain designations may dominate for a certain time period before it is replaced. I think new ideas are transmitted faster and more easily accepted thanks to the increased means of communication and modern transportation.

You seem to be understanding culture in terms of arts and fashion, am I reading this right?

I think of culture in a much wider sense, including instutions like government, religious institutions, an adhering to historical traditions (like say the Constitution in the US) and so forth.

There are institutions in any culture that help to hold a society together. Many of our institutions, imo, are failing to deliver at this time. For the most obvious case, check out how politics is serving as a very divisive force in our culture now. It was not always so.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by GeneCosta

I believe we're in a transition period of something grand, a transition larger than the Neolithic Revolution. In the 1900s we saw technology, science, medicine, politics, religions, war, public awareness, free-thought, and population reach heights never before seen in history (for that matter, never before dreamed in history). Look back at the past and you'll see humanity has been gradual in everything having to deal with it, aside from the Neolithic Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and perhaps the Renaissance. Yet even those events do not compare to now.

fwiw, my religion teaches that we're in a transition period comparable to the one when humans took up agriculture, so yup, that's about it. We view it as the time that has been promised by all the major religions, when humanity would be unified to the point where we would finally realize that there is only one human race, and peace will be a normal state of affairs. And as always, transition times are very difficult times indeed.

We're caught in the middle of one of the biggest shifts in culture since mankind first existed, and it is only natural that conflict has risen. There was conflict from the Neolithic Revolution with nomads and settlements, and now there is conflict with those of us who want to hold on to "old thoughts" rather than "new". In society you can see a clear split between people: those who believe firmly in the segragation of sex (maybe not legally, but socially), and those who want to make us entirely equal, something that wasn't even happening during the stage of hunter-gathering. The problems we see with women displaying themselves as "sex gimmiks" is, in my opinion, the extra-hard push against the old image of women. While it appears to not be productive for our time, I think it is necessary. I believe it is a push away from the conservative view on sex that will eventually settle once the conservative view starts to decline. I use this same scenario for race. Reverse discrimination is happening because it is that extra-push from the old thoughts. I think we're seeing it settle down; with the talk of ending affirmative action now returning.

That's pretty much it, I think. It can be very disconcerting to see all the "negatives," but when they're viewed as part of the process of destruction of things that hold back humanity, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think the image of Shiva in Hinduism is particularly useful at a time like ours. Shiva is often called the Destroyer, but destroyer of what and for what purpose? The Hindu "trinity" (Trimurti) of Vishnu the Preserver, Brahma the Creator, and Shiva the Destroyer is just recognition of what happens in the cycles of human progress. Shiva destroys the "old world order" in order to make way for Brahma to create a "new world order" that Vishnu will then sustain, until the cycle begins anew. imo, Shiva is dancing with great abandon right about now, but eventually Brahma will kick in and things will indeed calm down.

We're also shifting from under-protective to over-protective. Personally, I think political correctness is better than not recognizing equality. I think going with "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas" is better than going with "Happy Christmas... or you die/don't get elected/are shunned from society."

What is often called political correctness we used to just call common courtesy.

I'm always a bit amused by being wished even Happy Holidays in December. I have no holidays in December or in January. But hey, do I get upset? Heck no! People are just trying to be nice, so shouldn't that be a good thing?

Is relliance on medicine bad? To an extent, yes. But isn't rellying on science better than myth? Yes drugs are a new problem, but that's because science has now made all these new types of drugs available. Science is also helping us in the drug scene. The number of cigarette smokers is on the decline, and society is more harsh towards alcoholics than before.

I think of science and religion as the wings of one bird. Using only one wing, the bird just doesn't fly. Science can give us wonderous things to help humanity, and they can help us destroy ourselves. Religion without science becomes fanaticism and superstition, and those also hold us back. It's always best when they work together. Ah, but that's another subject.