Is culture just changing, or is it on the decline? (ritual, tradition)

[ChrisP]

I believe culture is performing the circle that it seems to go through every 2000 years or so. 2 steps forward 1 step back. If we're still around in another 2000 years you'll see the same sort of increase in technology. Humans will be fundamentally the same. You can't change something without denaturing it (a good case for genetically engineering clones?).

On the plus side, the increase in technological advancement does indeed seem to increase exponentially. 150 years ago it was steam ships and abacuses. 150 years before that sailboats (and abacuses).

[michel]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

I believe culture is performing the circle that it seems to go through every 2000 years or so. 2 steps forward 1 step back. If we're still around in another 2000 years you'll see the same sort of increase in technology. Humans will be fundamentally the same. You can't change something without denaturing it (a good case for genetically engineering clones?).

On the plus side, the increase in technological advancement does indeed seem to increase exponentially. 150 years ago it was steam ships and abacuses. 150 years before that sailboats (and abacuses).

'Technological advancement'.......ah yes, the legacy to countless generations of Nuclear power; throwing the balance of nature off it's kilter, by destroying necessary parts of it (that are required for balance); and, oh yes, the 'Sexually unhibited revolution' (made so much easier for pedophiles since the internet was available), genetic engineering.......maybe someone will produce a five legged mouse to show how damned clever they are.

And yes, the onset of an ice age, because of our greed and ignorance concerning the ozone layer........where I live (which thankfully is at the top of a very steep hill) will most likely become an insland withing a couple of decades.

And, let's not forget one of the prime areas of valuable land; it ranks as No 4 in the world (might still be) an area called 'Sandbanks' not too far from here..........which (coincidentally will be one of the first areas to be under the water).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbanks

Sandbanks is a small spit jutting out over the mouth of Poole Harbour near Bournemouth in the south of England. It contains one of the most highly awarded and popular beaches in Europe. Sandbanks, whose main road is known as 'millionaires row', is only 1km2, and has the fourth highest land value, by area, in the world. [1]. There are exclusive homes both on Sandbanks and across the immediate region, stretching east from the Harbour to The Avenue (the eastern boundary of Poole). The adjacent areas of Lilliput and Canford Cliffs, also have the largest collection of expensive properties outside London and are home to many celebrities. In 2005 a modest bungalow on the peninsula sold for three million pounds, despite its state of disrepair[2]. The Sandbanks and Canford Cliff Coastline area has been labeled by national media as Britain's equivalent of the coastlines of the Gold Coast, Australia and Orange County, California.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by michel

'Technological advancement'.......ah yes, the legacy to countless generations of Nuclear power; throwing the balance of nature off it's kilter, by destroying necessary parts of it (that are required for balance); and, oh yes, the 'Sexually unhibited revolution' (made so much easier for pedophiles since the internet was available), genetic engineering.......maybe someone will produce a five legged mouse to show how damned clever they are.

And yes, the onset of an ice age, because of our greed and ignorance concerning the ozone layer........where I live (which thankfully is at the top of a very steep hill) will most likely become an insland withing a couple of decades.

All this is true. But you can't learn from your mistakes without making them. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

If we hadn't made these mistakes amazing discoveries like... ummm... you know the things that have changed humanity... like...

People still eat [check]
People stil sleep [check]
People still crap [check]
People still fight [check]
People still misunderstand [check]

hmmm well, at least we do all that faster now.

[michel]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

All this is true. But you can't learn from your mistakes without making them. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

If we hadn't made these mistakes amazing discoveries like... ummm... you know the things that have changed humanity... like...

People still eat [check]
People stil sleep [check]
People still crap [check]
People still fight [check]
People still misunderstand [check]

hmmm well, at least we do all that faster now.

I won't ask you the obvious request for proof as to how you perform some of those acts faster..........., but you call the fact that we do all those more quickly progress?

[Booko]

Originally Posted by michel

Ohhhhhhhh I hope I don't get in trouble for this.

Uh, why would you get in trouble for it?

I think we are very near the peak; to me, reality T.V (which is becoming more and more 'reality', is not unlike the Roman enjoyment of watching people die in the ampitheatres.............

Like I said, I think we are near the top, and from there, we will pendulum swing back to an almost 'victorian' approach to life. Of course, that won't happen quickly. But happen, I am sure it will.

I wonder if we haven't already passed it a bit. Well, it will be easier to see with hindsight, I suppose.

Victorian? Hm, if so, I hope without the hypocrisy of that age. All that priggishness with all those desperate women turning to prostitution, and plenty of customers for them. Poorhouses...geesh, I hope not.

Well, maybe you meant something else by Victorian.

[PureX]

I agree with "Booko"; that we are in the middle of a global cultural "sea change". And I think it's as significant as the change from nomadic hunter-gatherers to settled farming/industrialists, as it involves a completely new way of understanding everything we see, think, and do.

The heart of this "sea change" is the intellectual concept of relativism. This concept has shaken our pre-conceived views, experiences, and understanding of reality to the core. Until fairly recently, human beings have believed as steadfastly as they experienced gravity that there is one true nature of existence, and that this is as it always has been and always will be. Our view and understanding of everything was built upon this ideal of a "solid" ideal reality. We built our livelihoods and our societies based on our belief in the absoluteness of truth and reality.

I don't know when or where the concept of relativism first took root. I suspect it has always been around, but I think it's only since the Renaissance that it's begun to seriously change the way people think. Scientific theory and practice is based on the concept of relativism, although this was not fully or clearly recognized until Einstein finally gave it a scientific form through mathematical definition.

And the results have been catastrophic for all forms of the old philosophical absolutism. We see this most clearly these days in terms of religion, and the violent struggle religious absolutists are engaging in as they attempt to combat the effects of relativism on their absolutist theological beliefs systems, traditions, and cultures. But they are losing ground.

I think we're also seeing the battle between absolutism and relativism in the deep divide within the American political culture. Here, we describe it as a battle between cultural "conservatives" and "liberals", but when we dig a little deeper into the definitions of each of these groups what we will find beneath are mostly philosophical absolutists who are trying to "conserve" their understanding and way life (they want a return to some idealized "past" where right was right and wrong was wrong, and everyone understood the difference), and philosophical relativists who can no longer live by what they see as such pointless and oppressive cultural restraints. They want a "liberated" (relativist) society in which people choose for themselves what they believe is "right" and "wrong" and are free to live accordingly.

I think wherever we go in the world, and find strife, when we examine that strife we'll find that at it's heart is the battle between philosophical absolutism, and relativism. So far philosophical relativism has clearly been on the increase, but the more influence it has on a given society, the stronger the reaction against it becomes. And this is why we're seeing such an increase in culturally based violence around the world, and such an increase in conservative activism.

I predict it will get worse before it gets better, but that in the end philosophical relativism will win out. Once such idea gets released into the collective human intellect, it can't really ever be removed, again. And philosophical relativism is going to change everything we think and do to the core.

[gnomon]

Within American society the following areas of "culture" have "increased"-

Political equality
Access to employment for minority groups and women
Access to health care


In regards to a massive change of global culture I do not see it and wish those that do could provide some evidence. What evidence is there for a global rise in the belief in philosophical relativism. Remember, the vast majority of humans do not live in the Western world. Do not confuse changes within North America and Europe as representative of the world. Let's consult China and India before we evin begin to posit what worldview is accepted by the majority of humans.

Also, what constitutes a cultural peak? I think the view that Western culture is being saturated with the mundane and exploitive most people in the world over the last century are witnessing a greater liberalization in their economic and political oppurtunities. If this is what is meant by a greater philosophical relativism from traditional views then I can agree. However, the definitions of democratized institutions changes from one region to the next. Witness the struggles in South America over the last century with what we define as democracy.

I'm just curious as to what exactly is culturally worse or better. And who exactly is experiencing the changes.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by michel

I think we are very near the peak; to me, reality T.V (which is becoming more and more 'reality', is not unlike the Roman enjoyment of watching people die in the ampitheatres.............

Heh, I don't think we have to worry too much until we start watching executions and such on TV for fun. Of course, there are already movies and video games and such where we see people being killed violently and call it "fun", so I suppose it is only a matter of time before we have the same opinions about the real thing.