The Right of the Man to Choose... (choice, abortion, sex)

[Druidus]

This thread is not about abortions, but rather, about the societal concept that if a female becomes pregnant with a partner, that partner MUST stay with her to raise the child in order to remain honourable.

I disagree.

If they did not use a condom, the fault is as much the female's as the male's. If they did, well, accidents happen, it's no one's fault. Anyway, now she's pregnant, and both are in a panic. Let's say the male doesn't want a kid, and/or doesn't want to marry this soon. Why should he have to, lest he be looked on disfavourably by the community? If he puts forth the option of adoption, but she doesn't want to do that, why should he be bound by her choice? If she wants to keep the child but he doesn't, fine, that's her choice to keep the child. But his choice was to not keep the child, and therefore, he will move on. The point is, why should his life be ruined merely because of a choice she makes?

Just a thought...

[No*s]

There is already a thread on this that Darkdale started here.

[Druidus]

Ah, thank you then.

[No*s]

Np

[michel]

Originally Posted by Druidus

This thread is not about abortions, but rather, about the societal concept that if a female becomes pregnant with a partner, that partner MUST stay with her to raise the child in order to remain honourable.

I disagree.

If they did not use a condom, the fault is as much the female's as the male's. If they did, well, accidents happen, it's no one's fault. Anyway, now she's pregnant, and both are in a panic. Let's say the male doesn't want a kid, and/or doesn't want to marry this soon. Why should he have to, lest he be looked on disfavourably by the community? If he puts forth the option of adoption, but she doesn't want to do that, why should he be bound by her choice? If she wants to keep the child but he doesn't, fine, that's her choice to keep the child. But his choice was to not keep the child, and therefore, he will move on. The point is, why should his life be ruined merely because of a choice she makes?

Just a thought...

O.K, so I take it she consented to sex ? If so, then the responsability is equally shared.

I agree that he and she both have the right to what they want, but ought to realize that what they did was (even through sheer stupidity) to bring a child into the world.

They both have a duty towards that child (Just by having consentual sex, without protection). The child's needs are paramount in this case.

But his choice was to not keep the child, and therefore, he will move on. The point is, why should his life be ruined merely because of a choice she makes?

Now that is where your thinking is flawed(IMO); he made a choice by having concensual unprotected sex. The fact that his life "May be ruined" is 50% his own fault, and he should be made responsible for a life he has brought into the world.

If he didn't want any chance of being pinned down, he shouldn't have had unprotected sex (which as we all know is an absurdity by the fact of the spread of HIV).

[No*s]

Since it appears that this thread is going to take off here, I'll throw in my two cents. If someone makes a child, the woman doesn't have the right (IMO) to abort it to avoid the responsibility. Likewise, the man doesn't have a right to not pay for the survival of the child.

If a person takes out Mr. Happy to play, then he also has to be willing to accept the consequences. He's obviously old enough to understand responsibility and shouldn't be shielded from his own decisions.

[Druidus]

Now that is where your thinking is flawed(IMO); he made a choice by having concensual unprotected sex. The fact that his life "May be ruined" is 50% his own fault, and he should be made responsible for a life he has brought into the world.

Yes, but it was her choice, not his, to keep the child. He wants to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child. She doesn't. Just because she wants to keep the child doesn't mean he should be bound to this decision.

He's obviously old enough to understand responsibility and shouldn't be shielded from his own decisions.

His decision is to put the child up for adoption. She wants to keep the child. Why should he have to be bound by her decision to keep the child?

To put this another way, from the perspective of the child:

If, indeed, they stay together and raise the child, though the male does not wish to, there will be problems. First, the stresses of raising a child might make it hard to finish school for both of them. This means the child will be suspect, likely, to a low income. Secondly, there are likely to be tensions between the couple. Why should a child be brought up in such an atmosphere right from the beginning? Clearly, IMO, the best thing to do is place the child up for adoption.

Lets put it in still another view:

What if the female want to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child? The male has absolutely no say in this decision. Even if he wants to keep the child, he can't if she doesn't want to. She's not bound by his decision, why should he be bound by hers?

[michel]

Originally Posted by Druidus

Yes, but it was her choice, not his, to keep the child. He wants to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child. She doesn't. Just because she wants to keep the child doesn't mean he should be bound to this decision.


His decision is to put the child up for adoption. She wants to keep the child. Why should he have to be bound by her decision to keep the child?

To put this another way, from the perspective of the child:

If, indeed, they stay together and raise the child, though the male does not wish to, there will be problems. First, the stresses of raising a child might make it hard to finish school for both of them. This means the child will be suspect, likely, to a low income. Secondly, there are likely to be tensions between the couple. Why should a child be brought up in such an atmosphere right from the beginning? Clearly, IMO, the best thing to do is place the child up for adoption.

Lets put it in still another view:

What if the female want to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child? The male has absolutely no say in this decision. Even if he wants to keep the child, he can't if she doesn't want to. She's not bound by his decision, why should he be bound by hers?

Yes, but it was her choice, not his, to keep the child

You seem to be avoiding the most important fact of all; having sex without any form of protection = the chance of 'making' a baby. Once he has crossed that line, he becomes responsible whether he likes it or not.

If the man can't make sure that he doesn't end up in a position in which he wouldn't want to be, then it is entirely up to him to say "No thanks".

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Druidus

Yes, but it was her choice, not his, to keep the child. He wants to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child. She doesn't. Just because she wants to keep the child doesn't mean he should be bound to this decision.

You're right that it wasn't his decision, but it was both of their decision to do the deed. If I had my way, both parties would have to consent even to adoption, and both parties would have to support the child.

Originally Posted by Druidus

His decision is to put the child up for adoption. She wants to keep the child. Why should he have to be bound by her decision to keep the child?

To put this another way, from the perspective of the child:

If, indeed, they stay together and raise the child, though the male does not wish to, there will be problems. First, the stresses of raising a child might make it hard to finish school for both of them. This means the child will be suspect, likely, to a low income. Secondly, there are likely to be tensions between the couple. Why should a child be brought up in such an atmosphere right from the beginning? Clearly, IMO, the best thing to do is place the child up for adoption.

They don't have to be married for him to have to support the child. If they do not marry, then he should pay child support. There won't be nearly as much tension in the home.

If they stay together, then that creates another responsibility issue. They are adults, and they should act as such. If one of them goes psycho or abusive on the other, then they should be jailed and worked hard in punishment.

Originally Posted by Druidus

Lets put it in still another view:

What if the female want to put the child up for adoption, or abort the child? The male has absolutely no say in this decision. Even if he wants to keep the child, he can't if she doesn't want to. She's not bound by his decision, why should he be bound by hers?

This isn't going to sound fun, but I support inequality in the law rather than further move it away from responsibility. If I had my way, I'd bind them both together and eliminate the easy outs except for adoption altogether (this is one of those few places where I support a bigger government).

My theme in response, which applies to all the circumstances, is thus: People who have sex are old enough to understand responsibility. They are old enough to know that should they have sex, there are consequences. They are also old enough to know that you have to do things you don't like. Sometimes, you have to do it just for survival, such as needing to go to work to feed yourself. Othertimes they are the result of our actions. The adult is old enough to understand that if he hits a big man, then he's going to have to live with the consequence of a few broken bones.

In short, he's old enough to know that life will not center around him and that he has to live with that. If he makes a baby, then he has bound himself ethically to that baby. He may not like it, and he may chafe at not having even a word in the final say, but he knew that before he took it out. At that point, he just has to deal with it, because he isn't a kid any more.

[michel]

Originally Posted by No*s

You're right that it wasn't his decision, but it was both of their decision to do the deed. If I had my way, both parties would have to consent even to adoption, and both parties would have to support the child.



They don't have to be married for him to have to support the child. If they do not marry, then he should pay child support. There won't be nearly as much tension in the home.

If they stay together, then that creates another responsibility issue. They are adults, and they should act as such. If one of them goes psycho or abusive on the other, then they should be jailed and worked hard in punishment.



This isn't going to sound fun, but I support inequality in the law rather than further move it away from responsibility. If I had my way, I'd bind them both together and eliminate the easy outs except for adoption altogether (this is one of those few places where I support a bigger government).

My theme in response, which applies to all the circumstances, is thus: People who have sex are old enough to understand responsibility. They are old enough to know that should they have sex, there are consequences. They are also old enough to know that you have to do things you don't like. Sometimes, you have to do it just for survival, such as needing to go to work to feed yourself. Othertimes they are the result of our actions. The adult is old enough to understand that if he hits a big man, then he's going to have to live with the consequence of a few broken bones.

In short, he's old enough to know that life will not center around him and that he has to live with that. If he makes a baby, then he has bound himself ethically to that baby. He may not like it, and he may chafe at not having even a word in the final say, but he knew that before he took it out. At that point, he just has to deal with it, because he isn't a kid any more.

Well, as you know, I agree with you; but............

They are old enough to know that should they have sex, there are consequences. They are also old enough to know that you have to do things you don't like.

The only point I would make is that the age of sexual maturity has been reducing over time; perhaps there is an onus on Society to teach sex and it's consequences at a younger age............

"Tommy, don't spit your dummy out again!" Says Mum, "By the way, having sex makes babies, so, unless you want babies don't have sex..............."