Why Isn't Evolution A Problem For Most European Christians? (moral, Darwin)

[Alceste]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

That isn't my experience Alceste. I'm funding myself in Bristol which is the 4th most expensive place to live in the UK for students. Many of the people I know here are not getting any financial help from their parents.

Hi Fluffy, which part isn't your experience? That not everyone can afford it? Or that it's middle class people mostly going to uni?

Hi, Panda, I didn't know higher education was free in Scotland - cool. We're thinking of moving to Edinburgh in the fall.

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Alceste

Hi Fluffy, which part isn't your experience? That not everyone can afford it? Or that it's middle class people mostly going to uni?

I do think that it is mostly middle class people who go to university but I don't think that the reason for this is financial. The middle class is not identified with having a high income but with various other things. For example, my family is quite poor but my dad was uni educated, he has a "white collar" job, we own our house. Therefore, arguably despite having a low income, my family is middle class and I see a similar situation repeated in the backgrounds of many of the people at my uni.

I think that the class split that occurs in university is due to a class split that occurs lower down in the schooling system. For one reason or another, working class families do not tend to send their children to better education even when the education is affordable. For example, working class families rarely send their children to take entrance exams for grammar schools even though education at such schools is free. Children are pushed less in comprehensives and, as a result, the vast majority of grammar educated children go to university whereas far less from comprehensives go to university or even complete their A-levels. This is despite the fact that low income families are afforded large grants on top of the student loans and top up fee loans allowing their children to go to university without requiring the financial support of the family.

I do think that there are some people who cannot afford university for financial reasons because they already have a poor credit history before applying for university and so are unable to apply for financial support. However, I think that this is quite a small group.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I do think that it is mostly middle class people who go to university but I don't think that the reason for this is financial. The middle class is not identified with having a high income but with various other things. For example, my family is quite poor but my dad was uni educated, he has a "white collar" job, we own our house. Therefore, arguably despite having a low income, my family is middle class and I see a similar situation repeated in the backgrounds of many of the people at my uni.

I think that the class split that occurs in university is due to a class split that occurs lower down in the schooling system. For one reason or another, working class families do not tend to send their children to better education even when the education is affordable. For example, working class families rarely send their children to take entrance exams for grammar schools even though education at such schools is free. Children are pushed less in comprehensives and, as a result, the vast majority of grammar educated children go to university whereas far less from comprehensives go to university or even complete their A-levels. This is despite the fact that low income families are afforded large grants on top of the student loans and top up fee loans allowing their children to go to university without requiring the financial support of the family.

I do think that there are some people who cannot afford university for financial reasons because they already have a poor credit history before applying for university and so are unable to apply for financial support. However, I think that this is quite a small group.

i didnt even know we still had grammar schools all our local schools are comprehensive

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by kai

i didnt even know we still had grammar schools all our local schools are comprehensive

I think there are about 150 left in the UK. Availability is definitely a problem.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Alceste

That's a very good point. Canada and the UK are similar - education is mainly for the middle class (which fortunately includes most Canadians). Not everyone can afford it, so it's not universally "cool", whereas in Ireland, where university level education is "free" the main considerations are personal interest and academic ability rather than social class. Higher education is so standard there "coolness" doesn't even come into it.

I think it depends what degree you pursue as well. I took engineering at a Canadian university and I was able to pay for quite a bit of my schooling by taking the co-op program (1 term school, 1 term work, repeat for five years). Things would have been a lot more difficult for me if I had to do the same thing on the money that an arts co-op student generally makes.

I ended up in a situation roughly similar to what the Europeans here are describing: with my co-op savings, I covered all my tuition and a good part of my living expenses.

Even without that, though, when I think about my circle of friends in RL, I can't think of anyone who didn't get or isn't pursuing some sort of post-secondary education. Not everyone gets a university degree, but those who don't, at least among the people I know personally, tend to get college diplomas.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

It seems most European Christians don't have a problem reconciling their faith with evolution, and accept evolution while believing in Christ. Yet, many Americans seem unable to do the same. Why is that?

Americans, even if they weren't educated at the Bible Way Christian School, usually attend schools run by local boards, and those local boards are often dominated by people who (a) are themselves poorly educated or (b) have a religious agenda to push or (c) pander to religious extremists or (d) all of the above.

[L0gic]

I would guess that the US is in some ways hypocrtical. It claims to be free of religious persecution, however, that tends to not be the case. I'd presume that parents of children don't favour evolution or don't favour religion, so the kids are raised in such an environment. I think education may have a key role in this, however, I'm unsure. It seems to be a stereotype but whether it is true or not, I don't really know. I have American friends and European friends, and they're all open-minded about religion and evolution.

If I were to venture a guess, I'd have to say that in Europe, evolution was simply more accepted than it was in the US. Overtime, people would have been brought up with the appropriate environments and learnt this. However, I think this may vary on who you talk to. If you talk to a group of American Christians, some may be more accepting about religion than European Christians. Unless a survey was conducted in both areas, then one could make a claim with appropriate evidence.

I tend to think that more Americans are less educated and less open-minded than Europeans are. This may be due to poorer education, influenced easier by religion (whether by the parents or not) or some other reason.

[Father Heathen]

I think it's peculiar that this thread is lacking feedback from U.S. Christians.

[Jaiket]

European Christians continue to suffer from the evolutionary slipperiness of the influenza virus. Evolution could kill us all!