Panspermia and the Bible (Jesus, Darwin, Earth, Eden, creation)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by idea

Panspermia has many levels to it. Most people know it through Star Trek - life was brought to Earth from some other origin, BEM's etc... but that is not where Panspermia stops. If life was brought here (which is reasonable as the age of the Earth is not really old enough for life to have "evolved" here if it does in fact do such a thing) we are still left with the question, how did life begin - regardless of where it began. Many who follow Panspermia answer this question by stating that life is immortal, has always existed, and therefore no origin needs to be found for it. The problem lies in the question, not the answer "What is the origin of life" like "where is the edge of the world?" The answer - the question is faulty, there is no edge, there is no origin. It is immortal.

The Earth is 4,500,000,000 years old, how long do you think life would need to arise and evolve?

Originally Posted by idea

As far as free will - will robots ever have free will? They will not because everything they do is controlled by the program that their creators gave them. Every action can be traced back to the original program they were endowed with. It goes for everything - if you are 100% created by another being, everything that you do can be traced back to them, and is a product of their design. the only way to have genuine free will is that you were not created by anyone or anything. Does that make sense?

Not to me, no, but I can see your thinking.
My parents made me, 100% of me, me behaviour is dictated by the genes I inherited from them and by the upbringing they gave me.

Maybe I'm not understanding your concept of free will. Free will to me is being able to chose, so if I come to a crossroads I can chose to turn left or turn right, without free will I'd be hardwired to turn a specific direction. What is it to you?

Originally Posted by idea

As for free will - some debate that we have it in the first place... I look around, I do not see "survival of the fittest" seems like there would only be one species left if it were survival of the fittest, that theory narrows down life. What we have is incredible diversity. Where did all this diversity come from? It comes from free will. It comes from the immortal nature of life.

It doesn't really work like that. If the world were the same environment all over, with only one kind of food and only one type of medium (i.e. land or water) to live in then there would be only a few species. But the Earth has billions of different habitats, and for each habitat a different group of interconnected species can exist.

For example, in a cave that has no access to the sun you will find no plants, but fungi, animals and bacteria can live there, and they will be adapted to cave life. In a desert you won't find many snails because they need a moist environment to survive, but you will find lots of heat tolerant plants, insects and reptiles.
And even a slight change in the environment can produce a change in the life forms that can live there, you could have an oak woodland full of deer and squirrels etc, and only a few hundred metres away the soil could become chalky and oak wouldn't be able to grow in it, but chalk tolerant grasses can, and in those grasses you'll find different insects and rabbits, birds etc than you would in the oak woodland.

So it's not about survival of the fittest on a global scale (with notable exceptions being humans and cockroaches), but about being the best adapted for whichever environment you live in.

[.lava]

Originally Posted by logician

The only things immortal are matter and energy.

could we really know that if we did not witness immortality of energy and matter for eternity? what are black holes then?








Dear idea, is this thread about Bible only?

[idea]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

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The Earth is 4,500,000,000 years old, how long do you think life would need to arise and evolve?

Good question - but I do not think there is any available data to answer it if you think life did evolve - The oldest trace of life we have found here is:
Pre-Cambrian stromatolites in the Siyeh Formation, Glacier National Park. - 3.5 billion year old fossilized algae microbes.

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Not to me, no, but I can see your thinking.
My parents made me, 100% of me, me behaviour is dictated by the genes I inherited from them and by the upbringing they gave me.

Part of you was present in your parents before you were born... part of you was present in your grandparents, in your great grandparents... part of you is eternal... Mass is eternal, the mass that you are made out of is eternal... what part exactly is the part that you inherited 100% from your parents? Your mind? are they responsible for all of your thoughts? I have three kids - and I do not claim to be responsible for everything they do. I try to teach them, but they have a mind of their own... I think every parent would say that.

Maybe I'm not understanding your concept of free will. Free will to me is being able to chose, so if I come to a crossroads I can chose to turn left or turn right, without free will I'd be hardwired to turn a specific direction. What is it to you?

Some of our actions are not dictated out of free will - we have to eat / sleep / breathe... well, we don't have to, but we do if we don't want to die... free will - the choices that we make that are completely internal choices - not forced from external stimuli, internal... There are different levels to free will - most people allow themself to be puppets... You put two people in the same environment, and they do different things... take the concentration camps... I think Victor Frankl might be a good source to read to learn about free will...

It doesn't really work like that. If the world were the same environment all over, with only one kind of food and only one type of medium (i.e. land or water) to live in then there would be only a few species. But the Earth has billions of different habitats, and for each habitat a different group of interconnected species can exist.

For example, in a cave that has no access to the sun you will find no plants, but fungi, animals and bacteria can live there, and they will be adapted to cave life. In a desert you won't find many snails because they need a moist environment to survive, but you will find lots of heat tolerant plants, insects and reptiles.
And even a slight change in the environment can produce a change in the life forms that can live there, you could have an oak woodland full of deer and squirrels etc, and only a few hundred metres away the soil could become chalky and oak wouldn't be able to grow in it, but chalk tolerant grasses can, and in those grasses you'll find different insects and rabbits, birds etc than you would in the oak woodland.

So it's not about survival of the fittest on a global scale (with notable exceptions being humans and cockroaches), but about being the best adapted for whichever environment you live in.

The best chace for survival is to be able to survive requardless of what your environment is. Environments change. If you are going to robustly survive, you have to be able to survive anywhere anytime. I still think survival of the fittest would lead to one species that was capable of surviving anywhere...

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by idea

Good question - but I do not think there is any available data to answer it if you think life did evolve - The oldest trace of life we have found here is:
Pre-Cambrian stromatolites in the Siyeh Formation, Glacier National Park. - 3.5 billion year old fossilized algae microbes.

Yeah, in fact life didn't take long to arise on Earth at all, only 500 million years, strangely though it was single celled life that dominated for 3,500 million years with multi-cellular life appearing only 4-500 million years ago.
Why do you think complex life took so long to arise?

Originally Posted by idea

Part of you was present in your parents before you were born... part of you was present in your grandparents, in your great grandparents... part of you is eternal... Mass is eternal, the mass that you are made out of is eternal... what part exactly is the part that you inherited 100% from your parents? Your mind? are they responsible for all of your thoughts? I have three kids - and I do not claim to be responsible for everything they do. I try to teach them, but they have a mind of their own... I think every parent would say that.

I inherited 100% of my genes from my parents, and it is my genetic code that constructs every aspect of my body, including my brain, so that I will be predisposed to certain behaviour. On top of that, my parents shaped my mind throughout my early life, so that by the time I was 7 or 8 my personality had been fully formed and is unlikely to change all that much for the rest of my life.
Matter is eternal (well, energy anyway) but it's not me. Think about it, matter that now makes my muscles was probably once the muscle of a cow or a chicken.

Originally Posted by idea

Some of our actions are not dictated out of free will - we have to eat / sleep / breathe... well, we don't have to, but we do if we don't want to die... free will - the choices that we make that are completely internal choices - not forced from external stimuli, internal... There are different levels to free will - most people allow themself to be puppets... You put two people in the same environment, and they do different things... take the concentration camps... I think Victor Frankl might be a good source to read to learn about free will...

I still don't understand why you believe free will is eternal?
Do you believe animals have free will?

Originally Posted by idea

The best chace for survival is to be able to survive requardless of what your environment is. Environments change. If you are going to robustly survive, you have to be able to survive anywhere anytime. I still think survival of the fittest would lead to one species that was capable of surviving anywhere...

You've actually just stated why there is such diversity, and the mechanism behind evolution - environmental change.
When environments do change, just like you say, you need to adapt or die. For humans this can be achieved through tool use, like fire and clothes to protect us from cold, but for other species this adaptation is a process that can take thousands of years.

Imagine a shrinking pond, in it is a population of fish that will die when the water runs out. One fish in a vain attempt at survival jumps out of the pond and struggles across the land on its fins trying to find another pond, it suffocates and dies.
Later another fish does the same, except this fish through a freak mutation can gulp air into its gas bladder, this mutation allows it to absorb some oxygen from the air and keeps it alive just long enough to reach a larger neighbouring pond. There it breeds with the native fish and passes on its mutation to its children. Next year when the pond starts drying up again, whose lineage do you think will survive?
Now imagine that process continuing for 100,000 years.

[idea]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Matter is eternal (well, energy anyway) but it's not me.

then what is "me"? if it is not matter... religious people get so much guff about spirits, soul, the things that we cannot touch or see or smell... yet you have just clearly stated that who you are is not the matter that you are made out of ... if you go back and admit that you are nothing more than matter, no spirit, no soul... matter is immortal too. Either way, you are immortal - changing from one form to another, but immortal.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by idea

then what is "me"? if it is not matter... religious people get so much guff about spirits, soul, the things that we cannot touch or see or smell... yet you have just clearly stated that who you are is not the matter that you are made out of ... if you go back and admit that you are nothing more than matter, no spirit, no soul... matter is immortal too. Either way, you are immortal - changing from one form to another, but immortal.

Well, if if I buy a steak with the intention of eating it, it is not me is it - its a steak. And eventually those amino acids are going to be excreted when my cells die, and then they'll no longer be me.
In fact, it would seem that "me" is a process, a big biochemical reaction that is constantly taking in fresh matter and excreting old matter. So, while I am made of matter, I am a constantly shifting blur as matter passes through me. I can't claim a steak as me, and I can't claim my poo as me either.

Matter is "immortal", yes (unless it's blasted apart by us), but the process that is me will someday run out of steam and cease - so I am not immortal.

[idea]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Matter is "immortal", yes (unless it's blasted apart by us), but the process that is me will someday run out of steam and cease - so I am not immortal.

Only time will tell