Why Creationism over Evolution? Bring on the arguments (Creator, Earth)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Hope

But then you get into relativism, where everyone has their own standard of meaning. You have no fixed point of reference by which to judge if it is actually meaningful or not.

I hope you realize that there's some odd reasoning going on in your statement: "if objective meaning doesn't exist as a concept, then we have no way of knowing whether something is objectively meaningful."

And frankly, objective reality or no, you have no fixed point of reference anyhow. Everything you experience is coloured by your own imperfect (just like all of us, because you're human) perceptions. Even if there's a solid surface outside us all that we can call "objective reality", each of us is measuring it with a rubber ruler.

For all practical purposes, subjective perceptions of an objective reality are indistinguishable from subjective reality. Whether there's an objective reality that none of us actually experience directly is really just academic.

[camanintx]

Originally Posted by Hope

I already explained why humans have inherent worth-----because we are created in the image of God. God is the ultimate Being of Worth, and if we are created in His image, then we are also beings of worth.

Yet when you read the Bible, God is constantly commanding people to kill others when he's not doing it himself. Doesn't sound like he sees much inherent worth in us.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

And frankly, objective reality or no, you have no fixed point of reference anyhow. Everything you experience is coloured by your own imperfect (just like all of us, because you're human) perceptions. Even if there's a solid surface outside us all that we can call "objective reality", each of us is measuring it with a rubber ruler.

Great post.

Any seemingly objectively fixed point of reference is arbitrary. Though its "objective" nature can be imagined, it can also be un-imagined or even moved. Indeed, it is ceaselessly moving. The more one clings to a need for certainty, the more difficult it becomes to perceive the movement of one's fixed point of reference. But it's still moving.

"You can find in a text whatever you bring, if you will stand between it and the mirror of your imagination. You may not see your ears, but they will be there." - Mark Twain's cat

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

No. The point you make only suggests that an approach to meaning in a godless universe which rests solely on intellectualism might be ultimately nihilistic. There are other ways to approach meaning that are not solely intellectual.

What are they?

Are you suggesting that no other species love?

Yup. Not as humans do anyway. We are the only species capable of real love....such as agape and eros.

How do you know God is "the ultimate Being of Worth"? What makes God an "ultimate Being of Worth"? That is, apart from simply assuming that God is an "ultimate Being of Worth"?

Because the created thing is never greater than its creator. If I read an amazing piece of poetry, I do not place the greatest esteem upon the poem itself, but upon the author of that poem, because I realize that poem only came into existence because of the brilliant mind of the poet. Likewise, when I look at the universe and world around me, I realize a brilliant, amazing intelligence is behind them, and I would be silly to worship the "masterpiece" and place its worth above the "master" who created it.

Because I determine what is of value or worth to me.

If this is true, though, and you admit that others determine what is of worth and value to them too, then if someone comes up to you and wants to shoot you, then you have no logical grounds from which to tell him that his actions would be wrong. Because your seeing yourself as having worth which makes your murder wrong is no more justifiable than his seeing you as having no worth at all and therefore worthy of death.

Without a fixed point of reference outside of ourselves we have no way of enforcing what is really of worth and what isn't.

Nonsense. You're over intellectualizing the question of value, meaning and worth again.

Am I? I think not. I think you are merely saying that to dodge the very problematic issue of relative worth and meaning in a godless universe.

[camanintx]

Originally Posted by Hope

If this is true, though, and you admit that others determine what is of worth and value to them too, then if someone comes up to you and wants to shoot you, then you have no logical grounds from which to tell him that his actions would be wrong. Because your seeing yourself as having worth which makes your murder wrong is no more justifiable than his seeing you as having no worth at all and therefore worthy of death.

This doesn't quite sound like a situation where logic would prevail but I'll humor you and continue the metaphor.

Yes, I would have logical grounds for telling him actions would be wrong because, regardless of what he thinks, I have worth to myself. That is why they call it self-worth. His opinion of my worth is irrelevant to my argument against him shooting me.

Originally Posted by Hope

Without a fixed point of reference outside of ourselves we have no way of enforcing what is really of worth and what isn't.

Yes we do, it is called consensus. Members of society come together and agree on what behaviors they will tolerate and what they will not. One is only free to choose their own morality if they live in seclusion from everyone else.

[rojse]

I do not understand the argument that if God does not exist, everything loses it's worth. Can someone please explain the reasoning to me?

I would think the exact opposite of that. If we are, right now, the most intelligent beings on this planet, without a "higher power" that we call God that watches over us, then all that we have achieved so far has been merely through our own work and effort, and what we can do in the future is only limited by the limits of science.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by rojse

I do not understand the argument that if God does not exist, everything loses it's worth. Can someone please explain the reasoning to me?

It's the moral equivalent of arguing that it's impossible to paint a painting without all the little lines and numbers.

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

It's the moral equivalent of arguing that it's impossible to paint a painting without all the little lines and numbers.

Or playing a song without sheet music.

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin