Intelligent Design? (America, doctrine, sin, God)

[meogi]

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

What true logic would exclude intelligent design?

None, but logic also states that premises must be true for any conclusions to follow. So far, ID's conclusion's premises are not true.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

you easily accept that a program as complex as windows XP was intelligently designed

Comming from a CS major, I'd say that's still up for debate. Also, XP just didn't pop into existance. (relating to the bible) On the first day, Bill Gates purchased DOS. And he said it was good. Building off of it, on the 2nd day, there was DOS 6.1. And it too, was good. 3rd day, Windows 1... Windows 3.1, Windows 95, 98, NT, ME, 2k, XP, ect.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

and the space shuttle was made by intelligent design and just one of our cells is more complex than either of those items by a long shot.

Complexity is very much a product of natural selection. You think we just happened to 'poof' a space shuttle into being? No, we tested, adapted, made better. There were 11 apollo missions before we made it to the moon. And that's not even with a space shuttle.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

if we found something as complex as we are would we only believe it was accidental?

Accidental? No, we'd want to know where it came from. I'm sure communicating with/examining it would help that process. If you're saying that life just 'forming' was accidental, then it's one mistake I'm glad happened. (I'd contend it was 'accidental' like how we discovered penicillin... wasn't intended, but is beneficial to everyone).

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

to exempt the possibility of intelligent design we hobble our own possible understanding of that which science cannot explain.

Quite the oposite in reality. If we just believe in ID, there is no need to try and find explanations for that which we cannot explain. And ID is not exempt from possibility, there just is no science that supports it.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

a true scientist should always assume that he doesn't know all the variables and never rules out anything

A true scientist doesn't. But a true sceintist doesn't base claims off of non-existant evidence either.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

if I remember my Sherlock Holmes correctly I believe it was stated that once you rule out every logical explanation then whatever is left no matter how improbable is the truth

Sherlock Holmes was no scientist. And he's a fictional character. And every other logical explanation hasn't been ruled out. So what exactly are you trying to show? Oh ya, this:

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

and unless you can come up with another possibility besides:
1) natural beginnings
2) intelligent design (whether by GOD or the little green creatures)

First off, natural beginnings hasn't been ruled out. Mainly because there are so many different ways we could have natural beginnings. You're never gonna be able to rule all of them out. Second, ID goes off the idea that we were just created. Which I don't see any evidence for. So logic would seem to exclude that one from the list, leaving only #1.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

then if I can easily rule out natural beginnings you would only have I.D. left

You can rule it out all you want, I don't care about that. Science can't though.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

I wonder why the is such opposition to I.D., is it too hard to believe that you were created?

No, it's not, at least for me. My oposition to ID is that it is not logical or scientific. This question can be turned around: Why is it so hard for you to believe you just happen to exist? Why does there have to be a creator?

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

it seems so strange to me to believe otherwise when you consider that every cell in your body is as complex as any city and together your body has the complexity of this whole world and the entire universe as well all wrapped up in the fragile little body that is you.

We've gone over the cell thing in another thread. Again, complexity is a result of natural selection. And I'll agree with you, the universe, and my being is a very, very complex, beautiful, and awesome thing. Why does a greater being need to have created it? Why can't something just 'be' beautiful?

[Mr Spinkles]

Complexity in itself is no indication of whether or not something was designed by an intelligent being. In fact, if anything, complexity better supports a chaotic universe than an ordered one....the intelligent engineer makes designs things as simple and as efficient as possible, so there is less chance of something going wrong. But as I'm sure we're all well aware, things go wrong in the 'designs' of living things around us ALL the time.

The real difference between the universe and, say, a space shuttle, is that the space shuttle was clearly designed for a specific purpose--to carry human beings into space. Humans, on the other hand, were clearly not intelligently designed with a specific purpose in mind. Humans have genetic diseases, deformities, and cancers. Our teeth don't come in straight, some people have shortened limbs or lack an arch in their feet, have back problems, poor vision, low intelligence, mental illnesses, etc, etc. The concept of evolution, not intelligent design, best explains philosophically why humans (and all other living organisms) are not perfect designs, but imperfect.

As Darwin pointed out, are we really comfortable with the idea that an intelligent creator designed all the horrors of nature to be the way they are, because he/it had that specific purpose in mind--like the parasitic wasp, which eats aphids alive from the inside, very slowly?

This all goes back to the classic conflict between science and religion...science accepts the imperfect universe we live in. The orbits of the planets are not perfectly circular, the universe was not created for the sole benefit of Earth with Earth as its center and with Earth as the only place like it anywhere, and the human body is not perfectly 'designed'. This all goes back to my post "Accepting an Imperfect Universe" in the Science vs. Religion forum.

Sorry for ranting...very tired...it's late.