Intelligent Design? (America, doctrine, sin, God)

[standing_on_one_foot]

Well, to get a bit off-topic here, I figure it means more spiritually and mentally than physically. The ability to reason, the ability to know the difference between right and wrong, an inherent sort of worth and dignity, the ability to create, to communicate and care for one another, etc., etc...although it's all open to interpretation, of course.

[meogi]

Ah, I see, thanks

Back on topic, I just remembered something about the human makeup that doesn't quite fit intelligent design. That being mitochondria. It's found in (I think) every multi-celled non-plant organism that we know of. It's part of each 'cell', and is what provides the cell with energy to survive. Problem is, it's a parasite, interacting with the cell in symbiosis. It has it's own dna, and is always passed down from the mother (the egg has her mitochondria in it already, which then reproduces itself).

Technically, if there was an adam and eve, mitochondria would be key to proving it, because every person on earth would have the exact same mitochondria. Alas, this is not the case. But to intelligent design, why parasites!?

[kbc_1963]

Before we sinned there was no destructive entities our bodies were perfect and we didn't even have need of clothes so attempting to compare the state of everything now to our own concept of what we think good or perfect is will not work.
saying that anything is imperfect as you see it now doesn't reflect on our maker rather it points out how far away from perfection we have devolved since our initial state of perfection and our sin has also affected the world and all created things as well.
In order for anyone to be able to judge any perfect design of anything would require the judge to know perfection otherwise your opinion is relevant only to your own perception.
This much I am certain of we did not create ourselves and random chemical interaction did not create us so all that is left is intelligent design. for any one to believe that the complexity of even the simplest cell (which can be compared to an average city in complexity) came about randomly and is as perfect as it is and then made stupid mistake during what you call evolution is idiocity, how to you get the perfection of the smallest thing and yet have everything else be stupid? if as you say there are unintelligent designs in the living things we can see then why wouldn't there be stupidity in the micro thing we can't see? why doesnt a cell have odd things that make no sense for form and function?

[Ceridwen018]

Before we sinned there was no destructive entities our bodies were perfect and we didn't even have need of clothes so attempting to compare the state of everything now to our own concept of what we think good or perfect is will not work.
saying that anything is imperfect as you see it now doesn't reflect on our maker rather it points out how far away from perfection we have devolved since our initial state of perfection and our sin has also affected the world and all created things as well.
In order for anyone to be able to judge any perfect design of anything would require the judge to know perfection otherwise your opinion is relevant only to your own perception.

From someone who so adamantly demands empirical evidence for absolutely everything, I am positively shocked to hear to hear this sort of fanciful tale escape your little typing fingers. Perhaps there's been a mistake...

This much I am certain of we did not create ourselves and random chemical interaction did not create us so all that is left is intelligent design.

Lol, fogive me, but you sound like a caveman.

"Holy crap! What was that!?"

"Oh, round here we call that lightening."

"Wow, where does it come from?"

"Well, none of us do it, that's for sure, and we're pretty positive the woolly mammoths don't do it, although a neighboring tribe swears it shoots out of their tusks, bloody heretics. Anyhow, we figure the most logical explanation is that some dude with a beard who lives in the clouds throws it down when he's angry."

"Huh. Yeah, that's good thinking! I mean, if it's not you or the mammoths, crazy people no one's ever seen before who throw destructive objects out of the sky for no reason MUST be the best explanation!"

why doesnt a cell have odd things that make no sense for form and function?

They do. It's called cancer.

[Jaiket]

Meogi, chloroplasts are another example of a cellular organelle that may have descended from a prokaryotic organism. It's worth noting though that endosymbiosis is not a host-parasite relationship, and such examples do not entirely contradict the ideas behind intelligent design. (Common sense however doesn't agree with ID very well).

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

(Common sense however doesn't agree with ID very well).

Understatement of the month!

[meogi]

Gotcha truth, perhaps I've played too much 'Parasite Eve'!

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

Before we sinned there was no destructive entities our bodies were perfect

Hey, I already said that!

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

This much I am certain of we did not create ourselves and random chemical interaction did not create us so all that is left is intelligent design.

How can you be certain? Everything's still up for debate. I've never heard of the we crated ourselves argument though... new meaning to the chicken and the egg. Intelligent design does not point to a god either. (You're assuming that). Perhaps aliens IDed us. And Intelligent design isn't 'all that's left,' because there could be undiscovered ideas/evidence for how we came to be. Just pointing out some logical errors in that statement.

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

for any one to believe that the complexity of even the simplest cell (which can be compared to an average city in complexity) came about randomly and is as perfect as it is and then made stupid mistake during what you call evolution is idiocity, how to you get the perfection of the smallest thing and yet have everything else be stupid? if as you say there are unintelligent designs in the living things we can see then why wouldn't there be stupidity in the micro thing we can't see? why doesnt a cell have odd things that make no sense for form and function?

First, there are a lot of different cells. Some complex, some not. Why? (Look at #2!)
Second, natural selection is a damn good process at weeding out bad/uncessesary things. Eventual outcomes are seemingly 'perfect' (perfect in terms of what they are neccessary for). You can see the see the starting points along the way as well (like simple prokaryotic life forms). This takes a long time, so sorry, no insta-perfection.
Third, they arn't perfect. Like Ceridwen pointed out, cancer. Why are they so easily 'utterly annihilated' by things such as viruses? They die all the time due to blunt trauma (scratching, putting your fingers together, sitting down) as well. Not very perfect.

[kbc_1963]

How can you be certain? Everything's still up for debate. I've never heard of the we crated ourselves argument though... new meaning to the chicken and the egg. Intelligent design does not point to a god either. (You're assuming that). Perhaps aliens IDed us. And Intelligent design isn't 'all that's left,' because there could be undiscovered ideas/evidence for how we came to be. Just pointing out some logical errors in that statement.

by saying we were created by aliens you only transfer the onus of the beginning of life and I could still say that my GOD created the aliens that created us so we get no where fast.
I do however have one thing on my side against aliens as an answer, there is no evidence of any kind that any life exists beyond our world, so a belief in that manner turns you into what christians might call a pagan and an evolutionist should never theorize without some evidence to back the idea so seeing as how this thread is evolution vs. creation we should keep it in those 2 area's althogh it is kinda neat to think of an evolutionist with the faith of Job to believe of an alien possibility. hehehe

"it is the job of science to provide plausible natural explanations for
natural phenomena"
(Science and Creationism, a view from the National Academy of Sciences (2nd edition), Nat Acad Press, 1999. Pg. 20. At(http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/)

See that is the duty of science and evolution chose science as its backer so let the "plausible explanations" begin.

[meogi]

The aliens was just support for how your claim was logically flawed. I by no means believe it. And I coulda swore I was a pagan in the eyes of christians before hand.

[kbc_1963]

The aliens was just support for how your claim was logically flawed

What true logic would exclude intelligent design?
you easily accept that a program as complex as windows XP was intelligently designed
and the space shuttle was made by intelligent design and just one of our cells is more complex than either of those items by a long shot.
Why do we assume that there is intelligent life outside our planet but don't consider it possible that we could have been created by intelligent design? if we found something as complex as we are would we only believe it was accidental?
to exempt the possibility of intelligent design we hobble our own possible understanding of that which science cannot explain. a true scientist should always assume that he doesn't know all the variables and never rules out anything, if I remember my Sherlock Holmes correctly I believe it was stated that once you rule out every logical explanation then whatever is left no matter how improbable is the truth, and unless you can come up with another possibility besides:
1) natural beginnings
2) intelligent design (whether by GOD or the little green creatures)

then if I can easily rule out natural beginnings you would only have I.D. left

I wonder why the is such opposition to I.D., is it too hard to believe that you were created? it seems so strange to me to believe otherwise when you consider that every cell in your body is as complex as any city and together your body has the complexity of this whole world and the entire universe as well all wrapped up in the fragile little body that is you.