Is it better to be a believer or an athiest? (beliefs, soul)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Atheist_Dave

I like that. Its impossible to tell for sure what we would be like without religious influence, as there are few records of human life before it was all made up. But I know this, my family has never been religious, they have never through the ages cared about the bible or God, and yet we are decent. The reason murder has become wrong maybe goes back to when we first became civilized, perhaps we realised it was a lot better for us to help each other rather than fight all the time. I could reason the others but I imagine you already have enough there to pick me apart over

Theft is similar of course, by not stealing it avoids conflicts, perhaps we began to see it is not worth the fights and possiblility of death to take the risk and steal. Im coming across completely incoherent here so I'll stop....

Peace x

So you do see some concensus then?

[Ormiston]

Originally Posted by Victor

I see some universiality in morality. No doubt you have some that deviate, but overall there is some concensus on things like rape, killing, stealing, etc. Is there not? Yes I know you don't think it comes from God (although you also can't prove this) but I hope you can see the concensus of it.

There is universiality in everything. Wheels make the most sense on things that roll, spoons work better everywhere for soup than chop-sticks, not murdering is more gratifying than murdering.

And we were originally talking about religion being responsible for morals, not God. I credit mankind for our progress, not religion. God isn't in the equation. We can't point to God but we can point to religion.

[Atheist_Dave]

ormiston, you put it much better than I did, frubals.

Peace x

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Ormiston

There is universiality in everything. Wheels make the most sense on things that roll, spoons work better everywhere for soup than chop-sticks, not murdering is more gratifying than murdering.

That is exactly what Natural Law is to us. What makes the most sense on a social level.

Originally Posted by Ormiston

And we were originally talking about religion being responsible for morals, not God. I credit mankind for our progress, not religion. God isn't in the equation. We can't point to God but we can point to religion.

If you play a numbers game it's hard to discredit religious folks as not contributing to this. How do you manage to do this?

[sky87]

okay ormiston and dave still say that they credit man. i already responded to that earlier, however i'm going to repeat it again. i know what you're trying to say, the fact that right and wrong vary amongst individuals, however like victor said there is universality in morality, most of us do know right from wrong, and no the mentally handicapped are not "unhealtheir" than us! thats not what i was trying to say, even a mentally handicapped person knows right from wrong to a certain degree, i know one in person, and she would throw a temper tantrum whenever she is angry, and she knows that she shouldn't because its "wrong" but she still does, this is exactly my point, we all know right from wrong in some way or another, we all have gut instincts, and these instincts are man made. if she slaps someone and she sees them hurt she knows it was wrong, these are gut instincts, the ability to tell from right or wrong, which are god-given. its a hard concept to grasp, and just as hard to really put it into words, im not sure if im really getting my point across, but this ability to tell from right or wrong is god-given, we don't just have it, do you get it?

[Ormiston]

Originally Posted by Victor

If you play a numbers game it's hard to discredit religious folks as not contributing to this. How do you manage to do this?

I don't discredit religious folks one bit! You're a religious guy and I think you're one of the greatest contributors to this website. My point is that it's all folks, religious or not, that should get the credit and not any one or the collective whole of religion. Giving thanks to God for us being here is fine with me but the "Giving thanks to God" is not what got us here.

[sky87]

sorry to disrupt the debate.. what are frubals? how do you give them?

[ayani]

only problem with that is which "god" should he believe in? and which salvatory faith?

islam? christianity (which denomination?)? jodo shin shu?

[Ormiston]

Originally Posted by sky87

okay ormiston and dave still say that they credit man. i already responded to that earlier, however i'm going to repeat it again. i know what you're trying to say, the fact that right and wrong vary amongst individuals, however like victor said there is universality in morality, most of us do know right from wrong, and no the mentally handicapped are not "unhealtheir" than us! thats not what i was trying to say, even a mentally handicapped person knows right from wrong to a certain degree, i know one in person, and she would throw a temper tantrum whenever she is angry, and she knows that she shouldn't because its "wrong" but she still does, this is exactly my point, we all know right from wrong in some way or another, we all have gut instincts, and these instincts are man made. if she slaps someone and she sees them hurt she knows it was wrong, these are gut instincts, the ability to tell from right or wrong, which are god-given. its a hard concept to grasp, and just as hard to really put it into words, im not sure if im really getting my point across, but this ability to tell from right or wrong is god-given, we don't just have it, do you get it?

There are simple and obvious reasons why the most common morals are what they are. You can look at any one of the 10 commandments and say "Duh...of course we should/shouldn't do that" and then give perfectly sensible reasons. People tend not to kill because it would ruin their life or they are afraid of having to tend to a corpse or they are afraid of what society will do to them if they're caught. It is Natural Law that guides us in the absense of Spiritual Law. Morals do vary to some degree and different religions follow different moral standards. How do you explain this? I think people are varied and places are varied and that's how. Not, my God explained this all a long time ago and you people just don't get it.

[sky87]

okay i get what you're saying, i don't think that we will ever come to a consensus on this, but what about love? is that some chemical reaction?