Can theists really reconcile evolution with their beliefs? (Darwin, Abiogenesis)

[linwood]

Originally Posted by evearael

Time is a dimension, like height, width and length. It is also something God is not constrained by... so fussing about the difference between time a and time b doesn't make any more sense to me than it would to fuss about the difference between point a and point b.

Do you have any empirical evidence to support the assertion that the concept of time is anything other than a human construct?

It makes perfect sense to "fuss" about the difference between two obviously contradictory concepts.

First and foremost God doesn't bother to describe any anthromorphisms of Himself at all. Everything else named can be related to a tangible species.

Thats not the point nor is it entirely true.
God himself gives descriptions of his anthromorphic qualities in Biblical text.

Gen 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
(Gods children could mate with and have offspring with humans)


Exodus 21-23

Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
(God at the very least has a hand, a back, and a face.That seems pretty humanlike to me)


Ezekail 8:18
Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them."
(He`s got ears too)


Isiah 16:11
Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.
(He`s got intestines and what seems to be a bad case of flatulence)


There are many many more Biblical references to Gods anthromorphic state from the motuh of God himself.


There are a few of possibilities here.
* Either God made us in his likeness and we evolved into something different and no longer hold gods likenesss.
or
* God made us in his likeness, we still maintain Gods likeness and evolutions implications are wrong
or
*God didn`t make us, we were brought about by the processes of abiogenesis and evolution and the Bible is wrong.

Perhaps your are right, and for the sake of the conversation, let's say you are. But you are already aware that I don't submit to "majority interpretation". So the majority can interpret pink unicorns out of a verse and it would do little to shake me up.

As I`ve already said, you are not the Christian I am speaking of.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by linwood

There are many many more Biblical references to Gods anthromorphic state from the motuh of God himself.

Sorry, I don't submit to the bold. The Bible is indirect communication. Burning bush is direct communication. Any anthromorphisms noted by the writers are only an attempt to explain the "nature". Not necessarily to physical qualities. For example: Some mammals can hear just fine without having "ears", etc.

Originally Posted by linwood

There are a few of possibilities here.
* Either God made us in his likeness and we evolved into something different and no longer hold gods likenesss.
or
* God made us in his likeness, we still maintain Gods likeness and evolutions implications are wrong
or
*God didn`t make us, we were brought about by the processes of abiogenesis and evolution and the Bible is wrong.

Or:
* God made us in his likeness thru the process of evolution while still maintaining our nature.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Victor

Or:
* God made us in his likeness thru the process of evolution while still maintaining our nature.

Please be patient with me here.

Are you saying that God set us on an evolutionary course towards our physical bodies now?
Or are you saying God set us on an evolutionary course towards our "nature" now?

Because either way we weren`t originally made in "The Likeness" (physical,emotional, or spiritual)of God but set on a path to become "The Likeness" of God.

Our "Nature" hasn`t always been the way it is now.
In fact "Our Nature" changes even now from person to person, culture to culture.

Either way we don`t now nor ever have fit into any "mold" as a species.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by linwood

Please be patient with me here.

Will do....

Originally Posted by linwood

Are you saying that God set us on an evolutionary course towards our physical bodies now?

In short yes. Although I have no idea "how" He did it. I'm quite content with submitting to sciencetific conclusions and instead of using the "God of the Gaps" argument I just say "I don't know".

Originally Posted by linwood

Or are you saying God set us on an evolutionary course towards our "nature" now?

I don't see why it can't be both. But I think (just my wild theory) that it was our "software" or soul or whatever you want to call it that triggered inner changes. Kind of how light (which is not matter) triggers the eye and the eye triggers the brain to react.

Originally Posted by linwood

Because either way we weren`t originally made in "The Likeness" (physical,emotional, or spiritual)of God but set on a path to become "The Likeness" of God.

The "Likeness" can mean no more then qualities that have the ability to grow into something.

Originally Posted by linwood

Our "Nature" hasn`t always been the way it is now.
In fact "Our Nature" changes even now from person to person, culture to culture.

That's true...that's why I noted what I did above. "Ability to grow"

Originally Posted by linwood

Either way we don`t now nor ever have fit into any "mold" as a species.

No we don't and this is just me taking a stab at it. My intention was only to hopefull show that both my belief and science can remain in tact. Not that I'm afraid or hesitant to disregard Science. It's just the freedom that I have based on my belief system.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by linwood

Please be patient with me here.

Are you saying that God set us on an evolutionary course towards our physical bodies now?
Or are you saying God set us on an evolutionary course towards our "nature" now?

Because either way we weren`t originally made in "The Likeness" (physical,emotional, or spiritual)of God but set on a path to become "The Likeness" of God.

Our "Nature" hasn`t always been the way it is now.
In fact "Our Nature" changes even now from person to person, culture to culture.

Either way we don`t now nor ever have fit into any "mold" as a species.

I wasn't going to answer this thread as it appeared to be going toward justification of the book of Genesis, and as a Muslim I am not bound by that book. It's not that its untrue, and I'm not going to critique why I think it may only tell part of the truth. I will however draw upon the word 'mold' you have used. In Islam we are told that Allah 'molded' Adam from clay. Inherent within this term is an implication of the passage of time. In the Quran we are also told that God merely says 'Be' and it is, which could be seen as opposite inferring no passage of time but instantaneous creation. However they are not strictly opposites. As God is beyond time (as we perceive it), time being part of creation (i.e. space and time) what appears to be one 'moment' (i.e. known at one time, everything that has, is and will occur), when God says 'Be' it is. As Muslims we are taught generally that nothing occurs in creation without means. Let me give you an example. You pray to god to ask him for money for good causes, God wishes you to become rich, do you wake up tomorrow and find that suddenly you have $10,000,000, in your account, or do the events (and presumably your own actions) in life lead you to a place where you manage to accrue wealth? So I'll apply the same logic to man. Did Adam appear in a single moment in our time, or as was sugggested was he molded, with, upon completion of the clay, ruh (spirit) breathed into him. As I said I see no contradiction between my faith and evolution.

[painted wolf]

for me there is no need to justify anything, science doesn't harm my faith, if anything it helps it.
I know there others that don't agree with that. (especally about the origins of the people)

but for me personally, I find no conflict what so ever.

wa:do

[robtex]

*bump*