Evolution and the laws of thermodynamics (God, verse, science)

[cvipertooth]

The first Law of Thermodynamics states: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but can never be created or destroyed.

For this law to be true, the universe, or "The totality of all existing things" (Webster's Dictionary, 1995), must be infinitely old, unless it was created by an outside force. this outside force would be supernatural, or god.

According to evolution, everything in the universe evolved from something simpler than itself. to agree with the first law of thermodynamics, there had to have always been a simpler organism, which would also require the universe to be infinitely old. That is, unless it was created by an outside force.

Many people i have spoken with have said "God couldn't have created the universe because he would have violated the first law of thermodynamics. He would have to create energy, which cannot be done." God is not bound by anything in the universe because he created it. If you build a house you are not bound the the objects inside and nothing else. God, being supernatural, cannot be explained rationally or proved by the ways of science because he cannot be comprehended on a worldly level.

The second law of thermodynamics states: In all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.

This applies to the universe, or the "system". There is no energy entering or leaving the universe because the universe encompasses all existence and there is no energy being produced or destroyed within the universe, according to the first law of thermodynamics. Since there is no energy entering or leaving the universe, the potential energy of the universe is less than that or its original state. This leads to entropy, or the ultimate result of the degredation of matter and energy in the universe.

As stated above, the universe must be infinitely old for the 1st law of thermodynamics to be true UNLESS there was an outside, or supernatural, cause. If the universe was infinitely old, we would be seeing some degredation of matter and energy, which we do not. Therefore, the universe must have been created by a supernatural force, or God.

[Druidus]

The foundation of your argument is errant. Since time and space are both bound together, time was created whenever the universe was. Therefore, it doesn't require an outside force. Of course, I do believe an outside force created it. Not your God though.

[Mr Spinkles]

I think there is already a thread on this topic called "Evolution and entropy" or something.

[Ceridwen018]

unless it was created by an outside force. this outside force would be supernatural, or god.

Why does the outside force have to be supernatural? It is much more plausible that this 'outside force' is something natural that we simply don't know of yet, or even something we do know of, but just do not completely understand yet.

According to evolution, everything in the universe evolved from something simpler than itself. to agree with the first law of thermodynamics, there had to have always been a simpler organism, which would also require the universe to be infinitely old. That is, unless it was created by an outside force.

This is a popular misconception. Evolution does not mean 'improvement', but rather, it more accurately means 'change'. For a species to evolve, it does not need to 'improve', but simply develop new characteristics.

Let's take the giraffe and the okapi for example. The giraffe evolved from an older version of the okapi, which is almost identical to modern okapi. Both of these species thrive today in their respective environments, however they are quite different. The okapi lives in the rainforest, and grows to match the height of a small horse (about 4 1/2-5 ft.) The giraffe, as you probably know, lives on the savanna and grows up to 14ft. or more, not to mention it's incredibly distinguishing neck.

Given this information, I ask you: Is the giraffe 'more advanced' because it is taller and has a longer neck? Is the giraffe more sucessful at survival because of these traits? Is the okapi somehow simpler in it's makeup because it really hasn't changed from it's ancestors? Obviously, the answer to all these questions is 'no'. The giraffe is not more advanced than the okapi becuase it developed a long neck and height. It is simply adapted to it's environment.

To make a long story short, evolution does not require that things evolve from something simpler than themselves.

God, being supernatural, cannot be explained rationally or proved by the ways of science because he cannot be comprehended on a worldly level.

If god cannot be detected, proven, explained or comprehended, then how is it possible you have knowledge of it?

As stated above, the universe must be infinitely old for the 1st law of thermodynamics to be true UNLESS there was an outside, or supernatural, cause. If the universe was infinitely old, we would be seeing some degredation of matter and energy, which we do not. Therefore, the universe must have been created by a supernatural force, or God.

Well, either the laws of thermodynamics are incorrect, or you are incorrect. Given the longevity and empirical analysis of the laws, I'm going to have to go with the latter. Sorry.

As I stated above, it is much more likely this 'outside force' was natural as opposed to 'supernatural'.

[Damien Sid Malery]

Why... Why would the universe break the second law of Thermodynamics and strive to be *more* complex? The answer: Something is guiding all matter in the universe toward a specific goal.

Randomness itself is a illusion. The universe could not have been created by chance. I understand that matter has certain laws and properties that may incline them to create a molecule but, even then, where are the laws coming from? If I were to take a handful of legos and throw them on the ground it is *never* going to create anything.

Evolution could have occured and may be occuring now, but not on accident.

[Real Sorceror]

I was gonna answer the OP, but Ceridwen018 already said exactly what I would have said. Oh well.

[stemann]

Originally Posted by cvipertooth

Many people i have spoken with have said "God couldn't have created the universe because he would have violated the first law of thermodynamics. He would have to create energy, which cannot be done." God is not bound by anything in the universe because he created it.

The Universe as a whole cannot be bound by the laws within it.

If it was then it would have to exist inside another continuum or whatever which also ran by these laws.

As Druidus puts it:

Originally Posted by Druidus

The foundation of your argument is errant. Since time and space are both bound together, time was created whenever the universe was. Therefore, it doesn't require an outside force.

The fact is that the Universe cannot be bound by its own laws, otherwise it would be self-referential anyway and would not even require a purported 'First Cause.'

Why must the Universe need a cause and not God?