How did life begin? (Earth, creation, God, science)

[Mister Emu]

One of the reasons we know that birds didn't spontaneously pop out of nowhere is because we can stimulate one of their genes and they will grow teeth

Some ancient mesozoic birds had teeth.

We do have fossils where puny reptile legs (arms) have the same structure as wings and other reptiles with feathers.

The last time I researched, there were fully formed bird fossils as old as, or older than, the oldest "transitional" fossils.

If this is not the case, could you please link to the find(s)

Self replicating strands of RNA. Later, they become DNA.

Has anyone observed the formation of proteins in nature?

[Druidus]

Some ancient mesozoic birds had teeth.

They weren't "true" birds. And because the only "birds" back then did have teeth, you have defeated yourself, as where did the birds without teeth come from?

The last time I researched, there were fully formed bird fossils as old as, or older than, the oldest "transitional" fossils.

Do you understand branching evolution? The "transitional" creatures can exist even when other members of their species branch into a new species. It's not a clear straight line.

Has anyone observed the formation of proteins in nature?

No, because there are little to no places for them to form anymore. The only places would be thermal vents, underwater, and that's a little hard to observe. In laboratories, however, they have seen proteins turn into self-promoting proteins, which are proteins that replicate themselves. A precursor to RNA. All they'd need to do is strike the right sequence.

[Mister Emu]

They weren't "true" birds. And because the only "birds" back then did have teeth, you have defeated yourself, as where did the birds without teeth come from?

I have never denied, adaption or micro-evolution. The fact that ancient "birds" had teeth was used to refute your claim that because a gene in modern birds can be stimulated to cause teeth to grow proves that birds were not always birds.

Do you understand branching evolution? The "transitional" creatures can exist even when other members of their species branch into a new species. It's not a clear straight line

I understand that if evolution were true that yes, there would not be a mass evolution of a species, I was again not denying that, logically if there were a "transitional" phase between two species we would find that there are "transitional" fossils older than fully formed species that the transition was going to.

No, because there are little to no places for them to form anymore. The only places would be thermal vents, underwater, and that's a little hard to observe. In laboratories, however, they have seen proteins turn into self-promoting proteins, which are proteins that replicate themselves. A precursor to RNA. All they'd need to do is strike the right sequence.

I have reservations about assuming something is natural because it has occured in a laboratory. Even if under "natural" circumstances.

Dr. Harold J. Morowitz of Yale University has done extensive research for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to discover the theoretical limits for the simplest free-living thing which could duplicate itself, or, technically, the minimal biological entity capable of autonomous self-replication. He took into consideration the minimum operating equipment needed and the space it would require. Also, attention was given to electrical properties and to the hazards of thermal motion. From these important studies, the conclusion is that the smallest such theoretical entity would require 239 or more individual protein molecules

emphasis mine

Therefore, the odds are 10 to the 161st power to 1 that not one usable protein would have been produced by chance in all the history of the earth, using all the appropriate atoms on earth at the fantastic rate described. This is a figure containing 161 zeroes

the odds against one minimum set of proteins happening in the entire history of the earth are 10 to the 119775th power to 1.

this is also with many rediculous concessions, such as every atom on the earth is being used for amino acids

this is quoted from Evolution: Possible or Impossible by Dr. James F. Coppedge

You can read the part on the probability here:

http://creationsafaris.com/epoi_toc.htm

[Druidus]

I have never denied, adaption or micro-evolution.

They weren't birds though! They were still a member of the dino family.

Dr. Harold J. Morowitz of Yale University has done extensive research for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to discover the theoretical limits for the simplest free-living thing which could duplicate itself, or, technically, the minimal biological entity capable of autonomous self-replication. He took into consideration the minimum operating equipment needed and the space it would require. Also, attention was given to electrical properties and to the hazards of thermal motion. From these important studies, the conclusion is that the smallest such theoretical entity would require 239 or more individual protein molecules

The key here is that she said living. She's saying that we jumped from nothing, to living. Which, of course, we didn't. First it was self-promoting protein strands. They weren't "alive" but they did replicate themselves from material in the environment.

[painted wolf]

The bird line went a little something like this... Small feathered dinosaurs such as Sinosauropteryx(with hair-like feathers more like a kiwi), more bird like feathered dinosaurs like Caudipteryx (with 'true' though symmetrical feathers unsuited for flight), to eaven more bird like dinosaurs like Microraptor (feathers more suited for flight) to the first bird Archaopteryx (assemetrical feathers full flight) to more and more advanced birds of all kinds. Of cource while this was going on other changes to the skeletons were going on such as the wishbone/sternum, arms and sholders and so on. A long seriese of mirco-evolutions that lead to what looks like one big jump.

I could demonstrate with other 'big jumps' but it would take a while

Again I would like to point out that there are self replicating 'non living' things... we call them viruses.

wa:do

[Druidus]

Archaopteryx

Archaopteryx was not a bird, as it still had "hands" on it's wings, and it wasn't full-flight, only gliding from the trees it climbed with it's "hands".

Other then that, you are correct.

[painted wolf]

actually Archaoptheryx is counted as the first member of the class Aves.... and according to the most recent studies of its antatomy it was capable of full fleged flight. It had the sternum and wishbone and sholder aparatus that made its arms fully able to produce a significant downstroke-upstroke... allong with its assymetrical feathers that also help birds produce lift. Certenly gliding is easier and Archey would have glided to save energy from time to time but It was a capable flyer.
Also take into account the environment it was found in... The sediments indicate a marine or brackish tidal area, with perhaps a few shrubs but not a heavily forested area for Archy to glide from tree to tree.

As for the hands other primitive birds such as Confusicornis also have clawed hands and are fully capable of flight... the hands may have played the role of the '******* wing' or alula a group of feathers at the leading edge of the wing that help to slow the bird down as it comes in for a landing. The Cretacious Eoalulavis hoyasi is thus far the earlist bird found with an alula.

wa:do

[kbc_1963]

Before a sane argument for evolution can lead to an acceptable solution would it not be prudent to argue whether there was a natural beginning or not?

Have a look at the thread I just posted about abiogenesis and if anyone can overcome the evidence then you would have ammo to fight this war with.

[Pah]

Originally Posted by kbc_1963

Before a sane argument for evolution can lead to an acceptable solution would it not be prudent to argue whether there was a natural beginning or not?

Have a look at the thread I just posted about abiogenesis and if anyone can overcome the evidence then you would have ammo to fight this war with.

What thread - please provide at least a name and it should be linked.

-pah-

[Mister Emu]

Originally Posted by pah

What thread - please provide at least a name and it should be linked.

-pah-

Abiogenesis - Is it possible?

I didn't read it yet, far too long but there ya go.