Entropy contradict Evolution (testimony, Creator, Earth, contradiction, creation)

[hadeka]

Physics and Evolution
The Laws of Thermodynamics Contradict Evolution



The laws of thermodynamics are one of the most important, most basic and most proven concepts of all scientific disciplines. These are valid in all our universe.


The First Law of Thermodynamics

The First Law of Thermodynamics states the following: The total amount of energy in our universe, or in any isolated part of it, remains constant. Furthermore, energy can be transformed from one form into another, but it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed.

As a consequence, the current amount of energy in the universe has been in existence for a long time. Natural processes cannot create energy, thus this energy could have been produced only by a force outside our universe.

According to evolutionists, complex organisms evolved from simpler ones. Simple organisms were formed from matter and energy. They state that matter and energy appeared from nothing. This contradicts the First Law.

On the contrary, Creation is supernatural, stands above the laws of nature. God can create matter, energy and laws that govern them.


The Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, also called the Law of Increasing Entropy, is a general and universal law that can be formulated in several ways:

According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the energy available for useful work decreases in an isolated system, although the total amount of energy remains constant. This is because energy can transform only into lower forms of energy through natural processes. For example, electric current passing through a light bulb ends up transforming into heat, which is the lowest "quality" energy consisting of chaotic molecular movement.
This Second Law introduces the concept of entropy, a measure of disorder. Entropy constantly increases in any isolated system. In other words, the system becomes disorganized and energy becomes less usable.
Based on this law, the amount of information conveyed by a system continually decreases and its quality deteriorates.
Basically, the law states that natural processes disorganize the state of objects and systems. Over time, everything decays and becomes disorganized. The universe irreversibly heads toward maximum disorganization.
Just think about what happens with our house if we "comfortably" leave it by itself for a while, we don't clean up, arrange and mend all the time. Natural processes constantly destroy and disorganize it. Our house needs our useful and expedient work to maintain the order. Even atomic particles search the lowest energy levels, they "like comfort".

The amount of information and the complexity of our universe perpetually decreases instead of increasing. According to evolutionary theory, life on earth progresses from simple to complex and never vice versa. Everything becomes more and more organized and entropy constantly decreases.

Thus, evolution contradicts both laws of thermodynamics.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is by itself alone sufficient to refute evolutionary theories. See the graph below.


Vance Ferrell, Evolution Disproved Series, p.809.

According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, everything degrades and breaks down. We can see this in the universe. The sun slowly but surely cools off, stars die, matter dissolves into radiation, etc. Our universe progresses toward its death, namely toward maximum entropy. This process is irreversible. If there was no Creator, this tragic end would certainly occur.

The Two Laws of Thermodynamics point not only to a death in the future, but also to the Creation in the past:

According to the First Law, the cosmos could not have created itself, thus an external force must have existed to create it.
According to the Second Law, if our universe was infinitely old, it would be dead and destroyed already. But this is not the case, so it must also have had a beginning. Sometime in the past the universe had been created and the cosmic processes were started.
Every star, the perfectly designed nature and all the accurate laws of nature bear testimony to the existence of a Creator who created them all.

Information Theory and Entropy

We think that the amount of information is continually increasing on earth. Day after day, new inventions appear, just think about the development of the computer. How does this contradict the laws of thermodynamics? There is no contradiction, for these inventions were not the random result of natural processes, but human intelligence. Humans create the programs running on computers to make them do useful work. Natural processes don't produce anything with a goal in mind. Having a goal means thinking in advance.

Let's think about the genetic code stored in the simplest living cells. It contains all the information necessary for the survival, behavior and reproduction of the cell. Scientists estimate that the information contained in a single-celled organism amounts to 40,000 volumes. The chance for this information to appear suddenly could be compared to an explosion in a printing shop resulting in Encyclopedia Brittanica!

We can draw an important conclusion from the above: new information and order can only appear as a result of intelligence, planning and useful work.

Thus, the origin of life on earth could not have been the result of random natural processes, but only God's purposeful Creation.

[Runt]

Natural processes cannot create energy, thus this energy could have been produced only by a force outside our universe.

Wait. Back up. You stated a moment ago, correctly, the first law of thermodynamics:

…energy can be transformed from one form into another, but it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Therefore, it could NOT have been produced… not by a force within our universe, and not by a force outside our universe. It is the infinite force itself—the closest you will ever come to finding “god”.

According to evolutionists, complex organisms evolved from simpler ones. Simple organisms were formed from matter and energy. They state that matter and energy appeared from nothing. This contradicts the First Law.

What? That simply isn’t true. Let’s walk through this. Complex organisms evolved from simpler ones. Simple organisms were formed from matter and energy. Okay, yes, this is true. But this is not to say that matter and energy appeared from nothing. The theory of evolution never suggested such a thing. Energy is infinite. It always exists. It can change forms. One of the forms it can change into (with high concentrations of energy) is matter. Matter can combine to form molecules. Molecules can combine to form biological organisms. Nowhere does this suggest that energy is coming out of nowhere. Thus, there is no contradiction of the First Law.

On the contrary, Creation is supernatural, stands above the laws of nature. God can create matter, energy and laws that govern them.

God cannot create something that is already infinite. Energy CANNOT be created (or destroyed). If there is a God, at best It can use the energy that is already there to form matter and thus everything else… but that is AT BEST.

The amount of information and the complexity of our universe perpetually decreases instead of increasing. According to evolutionary theory, life on earth progresses from simple to complex and never vice versa. Everything becomes more and more organized and entropy constantly decreases.

Entropy has nothing to do with complexity or disorder. It is simply what happens when energy changes form. It rolls “downhill” every time it changes form, until eventually all energy is reduced to useless heat energy. We actually SEE this in biological organisms. You body breaks down molecules to produce ATP. Your body spends ATP to power biological processes. ATP, when spent, is converted to heat energy—hence your body warmth. EVENTUALLY this may happen to all energy in the universe, making it impossible to form biological life or even matter, but right now there is more than enough energy here in the universe for organisms to have the matter they need to continuously become MORE complex.

[Mr Spinkles]

hadeka, you raise some great points, but you have overlooked a few things.

Originally Posted by hadeka

The First Law of Thermodynamics states the following: The total amount of energy in our universe, or in any isolated part of it, remains constant. Furthermore, energy can be transformed from one form into another, but it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed.

As a consequence, the current amount of energy in the universe has been in existence for a long time. Natural processes cannot create energy, thus this energy could have been produced only by a force outside our universe.

There are several problems with this last statement. First of all, even if energy must have been created only by a force outside our universe, that does not mean that force is God. A force does not have consciousness or humanlike behavior, is not interested in the affairs of mankind, does not have sentience, and is not necessarily all powerful. Also, for all you know it could be four or five different 'forces' which created energy.

Lightning is caused by a force...but I wouldn't equate that force with the sentient being which formed a covenant with Abraham.

Secondly, assuming some force must have created the energy in our universe, this force cannot be said to be 'outside' our universe. Anything which interacts with this universe is in this universe, just (perhaps) in some unknown part of it, or having some undiscovered properties. So basically, by saying 'some force' must have produced this energy, you are saying the first law of thermodynamics might be wrong--it might be possible for energy to be created in our universe in an as-yet-undiscovered way. I think, though I could be wrong, that physicists have considered this possibility.

Thirdly, even if "natural processes cannot create energy," this does not mean that energy ever had to be "produced"--by anything. It is just as possible that energy has always existed, just as the universe has always existed, and was NEVER produced. Now you might ask, "how is this possible since there was no universe/energy before the Big Bang?" Well, the answer is difficult to wrap your mind around...you have to remember that our linear perception of time is an illusion. Imagine a theoretical universe "before" the Big Bang--the time that elapses between this theoretical universe and the Big Bang is equal to zero, because time itself does not exist unless there is matter moving in relation to other matter to give it meaning (time is relative). Therefore, energy was not "created" in the Big Bang...it has always existed.

According to evolutionists, complex organisms evolved from simpler ones. Simple organisms were formed from matter and energy. They state that matter and energy appeared from nothing. This contradicts the First Law.

That is a strawman argument. See my third point above.

According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the energy available for useful work decreases in an isolated system, although the total amount of energy remains constant. This is because energy can transform only into lower forms of energy through natural processes. For example, electric current passing through a light bulb ends up transforming into heat, which is the lowest "quality" energy consisting of chaotic molecular movement.
This Second Law introduces the concept of entropy, a measure of disorder. Entropy constantly increases in any isolated system. In other words, the system becomes disorganized and energy becomes less usable.
Based on this law, the amount of information conveyed by a system continually decreases and its quality deteriorates.
Basically, the law states that natural processes disorganize the state of objects and systems. Over time, everything decays and becomes disorganized. The universe irreversibly heads toward maximum disorganization.
Just think about what happens with our house if we "comfortably" leave it by itself for a while, we don't clean up, arrange and mend all the time. Natural processes constantly destroy and disorganize it. Our house needs our useful and expedient work to maintain the order. Even atomic particles search the lowest energy levels, they "like comfort".

The amount of information and the complexity of our universe perpetually decreases instead of increasing. According to evolutionary theory, life on earth progresses from simple to complex and never vice versa. Everything becomes more and more organized and entropy constantly decreases.

This is misleading, allow me to explain.

The entropy of the universe is constantly increasing...that is true. However, that does not mean that the entropy of all systems is constantly increasing. For example, let's say we have a cooler. Inside the cooler the temperature is much lower than zero degrees celsius (the freezing point of water). If we put some water into the cooler, the water will freeze into a solid and become more ordered, which is a decrease in entropy. How is this possible? Because heat flowed out of the water and into the cooler (and some of it flowed out of the cooler) increasing the temperature (the random motions of molecules) of the cooler slightly. This means that the entropy of the cooler increased. So, even though the entropy of the system decreased, heat flowed out of the system increasing the entropy of the environment and the universe.

In another post, I used this example: if you run a computer program in which a bunch of small balls and a few big balls bounce around as randomly as possible onscreen, you will notice something interesting happen. The small balls will "herd" the big balls into a corner. On the one hand, this organizes the big balls and decreases the 'entropy' in that one corner...on the other hand, this also creates more space for the small balls to fly around in. So by organizing part of the system, the system as a whole acheives maximum chaos.

The system would actually be LESS chaotic if the large balls were NOT organized. Organisms have the same effect...they increase the entropy of their surroundings and so the net change in entropy is an increase in entropy for the universe. I hope this clears things up a little.

Vance Ferrell, Evolution Disproved Series, p.809.

This Vance Ferrell person must either be ignorant of these concepts, or he purposely keeps his readers in the dark about them because he wants to sell books.

According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, everything degrades and breaks down. We can see this in the universe. The sun slowly but surely cools off, stars die, matter dissolves into radiation, etc. Our universe progresses toward its death, namely toward maximum entropy. This process is irreversible. If there was no Creator, this tragic end would certainly occur.

According to the open universe theory, this tragic end will occur.

The Two Laws of Thermodynamics point not only to a death in the future, but also to the Creation in the past:

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here...the first law of thermodynamics specifically states that energy CANNOT be created...meaning a "Creation" in the past is impossible. If anything, the first two laws disprove Creation.

According to the First Law, the cosmos could not have created itself, thus an external force must have existed to create it.
According to the Second Law, if our universe was infinitely old, it would be dead and destroyed already.

Our universe is not infinitely old, and it may be "dead" in the distant future. Our universe has existed ever since time itself was equal to zero.

Information Theory and Entropy

We think that the amount of information is continually increasing on earth. Day after day, new inventions appear, just think about the development of the computer. How does this contradict the laws of thermodynamics? There is no contradiction, for these inventions were not the random result of natural processes, but human intelligence. Humans create the programs running on computers to make them do useful work. Natural processes don't produce anything with a goal in mind. Having a goal means thinking in advance.

Let's think about the genetic code stored in the simplest living cells. It contains all the information necessary for the survival, behavior and reproduction of the cell. Scientists estimate that the information contained in a single-celled organism amounts to 40,000 volumes. The chance for this information to appear suddenly could be compared to an explosion in a printing shop resulting in Encyclopedia Brittanica!

See, this is yet another strawman. No one says all that information "suddenly appears"....well, perhaps Creationists do. The information doesn't appear all at once, it develops from the small and increases exponentially. Creationists are the ones who say this information appears all at once by an act of the supernatural.

We can draw an important conclusion from the above: new information and order can only appear as a result of intelligence, planning and useful work.

Remember what I said about entropy? The information contained in DNA is a type of organization. Organization is an emergent phenomenon of chaos and does not go against the laws of thermodynamics.

Thus, the origin of life on earth could not have been the result of random natural processes, but only God's purposeful Creation.

Why are you trying to prove God with logic and evidence? Whatever happened to just having faith?

[dan]

1- Creationism does not mean God created everything from nothing. He obeys the laws He set in motion. The Hebrew word used in Genesis - bara - denotes a fashioning or shaping of something, not an initial creation. Those that say God created matter and energy do not understand the nature of God. Your arguments work against mainstream Christianity, but not against truth.

2- The organization that inevitably results from entropy is not the organization of which you speak. "Out of chaos comes order" the famous psychotic philosopher said, but that order is a homogenity that results from constant disorganization. Chance is the only thing that may create such an infinitely complex thing as DNA (if you don't believe in God) and the numbers show that the odds of chance creating one of even the simplest of proteins is one over ten to the one hundred and fifty-second power. Those odds are ludicrous.

3- It says up there that information starts out small and increases exponentially. Well, the odds of DNA existing in its simplest form are ridiculously infinite, and for that DNA to then "increase" the odds also increase exponentially from there. Your argument is exponentially preposterous.

4- All your examples about entropy increasing bring one interesting point to the surface: there is a person overseeing and controlling every single one of them. None of them occur naturally. You're only proving that a God may cause entropy to do the things you claim it does. The cooler is an outside force that excercises an influence over the water. The balls are placed somewhere and moved with purpose. The computer program must be designed and executed.

5- The beginning of your argument beasically says this: "That's not what happened. We don't know what happened, but that can't be what happened because that's stupid." James says that our passional natures are what drives our convictions, rather than our logical sides. You don't believe creationism because you don't want to. You don't understand it at all, so we can't argue that you have considered it at length and find it to be lacking. You understand science only insofar as it is breastfed you by scientists who contradict each other more than the Bible does itself (and that's saying a lot). You gather information that feels good to you and proves your point, and that becomes your truth. You hardly think to test and try that information. This is perfectly natural. Everyone does it, you shouldn't feel bad.

[Jayhawker Soule]

hadeka, persistent ignorance is always sad to see when the information is so readily available. But what I truly find despicable is plagiarism, and I have nothing but contempt for those who stoop to such things.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by dan

1- Creationism does not mean God created everything from nothing. He obeys the laws He set in motion. The Hebrew word used in Genesis - bara - denotes a fashioning or shaping of something, not an initial creation.

And the ancient Hebrew man who originally wrote Genesis MUST have gotten all of his ideas straight from the mind of God, because that is what you want to be true. Don't feel bad--like you said, we all do it.

Those that say God created matter and energy do not understand the nature of God.

No, they just don't understand the laws of thermodynamics.

Your arguments work against mainstream Christianity, but not against truth.

Well, I certainly hope they don't work against truth.

2- The organization that inevitably results from entropy is not the organization of which you speak. "Out of chaos comes order" the famous psychotic philosopher said, but that order is a homogenity that results from constant disorganization. Chance is the only thing that may create such an infinitely complex thing as DNA (if you don't believe in God) and the numbers show that the odds of chance creating one of even the simplest of proteins is one over ten to the one hundred and fifty-second power. Those odds are ludicrous.

First of all, the organization that results from entropy is not the result of chance it is the result of the second law of thermodynamics. It is a simple equation, where S stands for entropy: the change in S(universe) = the change in S(system) + the change in S(surroundings). Both sides of this equation will always be positive, though the change in S(system) can be negative. The biological reactions that take place in organisms result in a very large positive change in the entropy of their surroundings, and ultimately a positive change in the entropy of the universe. I suggest you do more research on the subject here: http://www.learnchem.net/tutorials/spont.shtml

Secondly, where did you come up with these supposed "odds"? Can you back up this claim?

3- It says up there that information starts out small and increases exponentially. Well, the odds of DNA existing in its simplest form are ridiculously infinite, and for that DNA to then "increase" the odds also increase exponentially from there. Your argument is exponentially preposterous.

Care to back that up with anything, or did you just read that somewhere and you want it to be true? Try asking anders what the odds are, he's a chemist.

4- All your examples about entropy increasing bring one interesting point to the surface: there is a person overseeing and controlling every single one of them. None of them occur naturally.

You have totally missed my point, they all occur naturally. Water vapor condenses into droplets, which is a decrease in entropy, yet heat flows out of the vapor into the environment and ultimately leads to an increase in entropy of the universe. No one has to "control" water vapor to make it condense into droplets, it just happens.

You're only proving that a God may cause entropy to do the things you claim it does. The cooler is an outside force that excercises an influence over the water. The balls are placed somewhere and moved with purpose. The computer program must be designed and executed.

No, not even close. The cooler was the environment, the water was the system, and everything outside and inside the cooler was the universe. Take a look at the equation of entropy I wrote above.

5- The beginning of your argument beasically says this: "That's not what happened. We don't know what happened, but that can't be what happened because that's stupid."

I didn't say that at all--don't put words in my mouth.

James says that our passional natures are what drives our convictions, rather than our logical sides. You don't believe creationism because you don't want to. You don't understand it at all, so we can't argue that you have considered it at length and find it to be lacking. You understand science only insofar as it is breastfed you by scientists who contradict each other more than the Bible does itself (and that's saying a lot). You gather information that feels good to you and proves your point, and that becomes your truth. You hardly think to test and try that information.

You seem to know a lot about me. Could you give me a horoscope?

You don't seem to understand entropy at all, but I won't hold that against you.

[hadeka]

sorry i couldnt read all this and im gonna read it tonight because im very busy now
but i just read the first paragraph.

Runt said:
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Therefore, it could NOT have been produced… not by a force within our universe, and not by a force outside our universe. It is the infinite force itself—the closest you will ever come to finding “god”.

..here we are talking about all the forces in the nature of the universe, that there is not any force IN OUR UNIVERSE can produce the energy, so of course, the source of that energy is a force outisde the universe.
And about the entropy:
If u left ur home for about 10 years for example, when u return, you will not find in arrangement as u left it !
because the entropy is always increasing.
The increasing of the entropy is a main thing in the laws of our universe.

but look at everything in our universe, u will find that the entropy is decreasing !!

so the decreasing of the entropy in our universe is against the laws of nature !!

what is the force that can make a law against the law of nature ??!!!

I think, GOD

Hope u can understand what i mean and i will read all this tonight

thank you

Hadeka.