Can Europe Survive the 21st Century Without Uniting? (tradition, evolve)

[Sunstone]

Can Europe survive the 21st Century without uniting into a sort of United States of Europe? Why or why not?

[James the Persian]

I don't know, but I certainly hope so. The idea of a United States of Europe or even a federation as proposed by some of the more integrationist European politicians gives me the willies, especially given the EU's record of trampling on the rights and cultures of member states. Personally, I think it's a very sad thing in every way other than the purely economic to see Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU. Their cultures are so different to those of western European nations and they, like Greece before them, have a great deal to lose from the sort of cultural imperialism practiced by the EU. I'd sooner see an alternative economic block built up in the east with the likes of Russia and the Ukraine than this expansion of the EU.

James

[c0da]

I think so. I believe that, certainly Western Europe, is united enough as it is to survive and prosper throughout the 21st Century. Britain will definitely survive and prosper in the 21st Century, partly because of its close ties with the US. For Britain to truly reach it's potential, I honestly think it needs to distance itself a bit from the possible emergence of a European Super State. I think Britain should remain trading with Europe, by all means, but I think British culture and the British people are too different and seperate from mainland Europe, rendering Britain incompatible with a EU Super State.

[Æsahættr]

I think it could survive without uniting, but I hope that it does. I don't think that Europe destroys differences in culture, but what it does do is help people to feel that despite cultural differences they are still united in some way, and helps to put a stop to distrust of other European countries. Obviously it has to be a gradual process, and there's always a risk of more bureaucracy setting in, but I think overall there is far more to gain than lose.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by c0da

I think so. I believe that, certainly Western Europe, is united enough as it is to survive and prosper throughout the 21st Century.

I agree.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Æsahættr

I think it could survive without uniting, but I hope that it does. I don't think that Europe destroys differences in culture, but what it does do is help people to feel that despite cultural differences they are still united in some way, and helps to put a stop to distrust of other European countries. Obviously it has to be a gradual process, and there's always a risk of more bureaucracy setting in, but I think overall there is far more to gain than lose.

Might I point out, as one of the more egregious examples of what I was referring to, the status of Mount Athos? For those who don't know, this is an autonomous monastic republic in Greece that has been under the direct jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch only for about a millennium. It is nominally part of Greece but has its own laws and women have been forbidden to enter since the beginning. When Greece joined the EU part of the accession treaty specified that Athos would be exempt from complying with EU laws which would require the penisular to be opened to women. Nonetheless the EU has been pushing to have it opened up ever since despite there being no significant objection to the tradition continuing within Greece itself. Even the Ottomans respected the rights of the monks of Athos to control who could and could not enter their monasteries but the EU's secularist politicians and beaurocrats are clearly less tolerant.

James

[Terrywoodenpic]

By the middle of the 21st century , the most important new power groping in the world, will revolve around China and India.
How the old Great powers of Europe and the British commonwealth,The usa, the Arab states, Russia and Africa will be changed by the new situation is hard to tell.

It may well be new Groupings of states will come together to better face the new realities.
The added concern of the reduction of fossil fuel supplies ( India and China will be using more) will greatly add to the tensions in international relationships and trade.
How the various European states come to terms with all this change, is anyones guess;
but it is clear the EU will have a major role.
It may easily come about that the only way the various european nations have any say at all in world affairs is to become a super nation.

The USA itself will be at the mercy of their imposable trade deficit with china.
China already holds massive Dollar balances, sufficient to threaten the USA's financial stability if called in. (or worse if China would no longer trade in Dollars with the rest of the world)

Unless China can be persuaded to take massive real stakes in the USA and Europe;
it will be difficult to prevent them having a stranglehold of world trade.

At the moment foreign businesses hold large stakes or complete ownership of important corporations in other countries; this more than any international agreements limits what financial pressure one country can bring to bear on another.
China have not moved very far down this route, which leaves their options open in the control of world trade.

If the EU are to become a defacto state or not, will determine how much influence, if any, they have in the new world order.
Special relationships with the USA, which even now are a one way affair, will become Irrelevant

[Halcyon]

Pfft. The last time someone tried to unite Europe was the Roman Empire, and look how that turned out.

I think after after 2000 odd years of sorting ourselves out, we're about as united as we're going to get.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Pfft. The last time someone tried to unite Europe was the Roman Empire, and look how that turned out.

I think after after 2000 odd years of sorting ourselves out, we're about as united as we're going to get.

No, Napoleon and Hitler have both tried to unite Europe since the fall of Rome - not that either of those ventures turned out any better.

James