A 7th Yugoslav republic? (minority, America, faith, muslims, Orthodox)

[Djamila]

In 1991, Yugoslavia began a slow and painful process of disintegration. The socialist union failed following the death of Josip Broz Tito, whose ideals and political savy single-handedly held it together.

One by one the republics that had united just 50 years earlier broke apart. Slovenia and Croatia declared their independence in 1991. Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia declared their independence in 1992.

Montenegro declared its independence in 2006. That final referendum was the death-blow for Yugoslavia. Now all six republics which had signed on to create the country were independent in and of themselves.

But it didn't stop there. Kosovo, a province of Serbia (and this is very important. The fact it is a Serbian province, and not an independent republic, has completely different implications) is currently undergoing negociations to determine its final status.

It has been under the administration of the United Nations since 1999, when the international community took over the province's leadership following a war to stop the violence in Kosovo.

The United Nations stopped the violence against Kosovo's Albanian civilians, but when these hundreds of thousands of refugees poured back into the province after being expelled, the UN did not protect Kosovo's Serbs from them. This has bred an even deeper resentment for the international community among Kosovo's Serbs. This is also important to know.

So, where does it go from here? Do you believe Kosovo should be independent? Regardless, do you believe it will be?

I think Kosovo will be independent. The population there is more than 90 per cent Albanian, and has been for decades. There is no way they will placate 90 per cent of the population to honor the wishes of some 5 per cent. If Kosovo isn't given independence, they'll take it - it's really that simple.

Whether or not they should be independent is a separate matter to me. I won't get into the historical discussions because they go in circles. You can say Kosovo is the heart of Serbia, and in many ways it is - but the real heart is Raska (Sandzak, a region now populated by Serbian Muslims). You can say Kosovo belongs to the Albanians, because they're the descendants of the Illyrians, the original inhabitants - but if you support that arguement, they should effectively be given most of the Balkans - and it will never end.

So history, for me, cannot play a role because history does not offer any acceptable solution.

So I look instead at what's best for the weakest among Kosovo's population. If you look out for the weakest and most vulnerable, the majority will take care of themselves.

Kosovo's Serbs want the province to remain a part of Serbia, but this is not welcomed by Albanians for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the war and all those feelings - but there are practical reasons as well. Kosovo, under Serbian leadership, will continue to stagnate as it has for the last 50 years. It's almost like an African-American ghetto in America, the government just doesn't do anything in terms of economic development, and so on.

If Kosovo is independent, the same will be true of what are today relatively better-off Serbian areas. They will stagenate and fall into disrepair and misery.

So what do you do? I think self-government is the least offensive solution. Albanians and Serbians in Kosovo should be able to govern themselves in the districts where they form a majority. I don't mean farce government, like the Palestinian territories, I mean real government - with their own currency, their own flag, their own schools, their own infrastructure, and so on.

Then, whether Kosovo is independent or not on paper matters little. Any final decision might even be postponed, who knows.

So what do you all think?

[Sunstone]

If 90% of a population wants independence, what right does anyone have to prevent them? It is not like the Serbians signed over their rights to independence, did they? What I mean is, the States in the United States signed over their rights to independence upon becoming part of the United States. That was settled by the American Civil War. But the Serbians have at no time signed over their rights to independence, or have they? If they haven't, and they want independence, the rest of Europe and the world should support them in gaining independence.

[Djamila]

It's actually the Albanians who want independence.

Basically the situation is like this, Sunstone.

Imagine southern California - San Diego as far north as San Francisco, San Jose. This area, centuries ago, belonged to the Spanish people, today's Mexicans. Kosovo, centuries ago, belonged to the Illyrian people, today's Albanians.

But California became a part of the United States very early in American history. And it's an important part - it has all sorts of important cultural and historial significance for Americans. Kosovo became part of Serbia very early in Serbia's history and in many ways is the seat of the Serbian Orthodox faith.

In California, over the last several decades, Spanish people have become the largest minority in the state. Over the last century, the Albanian population in Kosovo grew to become the majority.

Now imagine the Spanish in California wanted independence, or possibly even to join Mexico. What would the reaction of the average, white American in California be? That's the reaction of the Serbian people.

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by Djamila

It's actually the Albanians who want independence.

Basically the situation is like this, Sunstone.

Imagine southern California - San Diego as far north as San Francisco, San Jose. This area, centuries ago, belonged to the Spanish people, today's Mexicans. Kosovo, centuries ago, belonged to the Illyrian people, today's Albanians.

But California became a part of the United States very early in American history. And it's an important part - it has all sorts of important cultural and historial significance for Americans. Kosovo became part of Serbia very early in Serbia's history and in many ways is the seat of the Serbian Orthodox faith.

In California, over the last several decades, Spanish people have become the largest minority in the state. Over the last century, the Albanian population in Kosovo grew to become the majority.

Now imagine the Spanish in California wanted independence, or possibly even to join Mexico. What would the reaction of the average, white American in California be? That's the reaction of the Serbian people.

Thank you for explaining that. From what you've said, I do not get the impression that union with Serbia has been of much benefit to the majority of Kosovians. Is that correct?

[Djamila]

It hasn't really, no. I can say the average Kosovar Albanian was much better off in Yugoslavia than Albanians living under the communist regime in Albania were.

However, I can say equally strongly that the average Kosovar Albanian had fewer than half the opportunities, social programs, and so on, awarded to every other resident from every other ethnic and religious group in Yugoslavia, except Roma (Gypsies).

[Djamila]

Yugoslavia had very visible classes of people.

The wealthiest, by far, were the Slovenians. You need only look at their cities. This is Ljubljana, Slovenia (Yugoslavia) - where Donald Trump's wife is from.



Next were the Croatians, again you can tell their cities are slightly poorer than the Slovenians but still quite wealthy. This is Dubrovnik, Croatia (Yugoslavia):


The next wealthiest were the Serbians. A lot more communist architecture, not as much nice things. This is Belgrade, Serbia (Yugoslavia):



The next were the Bosnians. This is Sarajevo, Bosnia (Yugoslavia):

[Djamila]

Then you had the Macedonians. This is Skopje, Macedonia (Yugoslavia):


Then you had the Kosovar's, this is Prishtina, Kosovo (Serbia, Yugoslavia):

[Sunstone]

It doesn't seem like the Serbs have given the Kosovars much reason to stick with them. IF the Kosovars want independence, the Serbs have only themselves to blame. Or am I misguided here?

[Djamila]

Yes and no. Kosovar Albanians began this current fight for independence during WWII. When WWII had finished, they were absolutely horrified that the governments of Europe awarded them to Yugoslavia. It was a completely unprecedented move, especially considering they'd spent weeks from the end of the fighting to the announcement of this decision celebrating their independence.

From the first days of Yugoslavia, Kosovo has always been dominated by a desire for independence. This, naturally, caused the Yugoslav fist to come down hard. Now this can't be blamed entirely on Serbia. The leader of Yugoslavia, Josip Broz Tito, was in fact Croatian and just about everyone in Yugoslavia supported measures to keep Kosovo in line.

However, once Tito died and Serbia assumed full assume of Kosovo (which had always been autonomous in Yugoslavia, with its own government, elections, and so on), everything escalated. Hundreds of Albanian students were beaten, several to death, at independence rallies in the early 1990s. Then the ethnic cleansing campaign was launched, that much you surely know already. All this time attacks on Serbs were taking place as well, though they were not organized like the full force of the Serbian army that Kosovar Albanians were facing.

Now it's reached a point where there's no going back, really.