Original sin (ritual, reject, gospel, salvation, incarnation)

[*Paul*]

What are the Orthodox churches objections to the doctrine of original sin? It seems the early church believed it (or so is claimed by the RC) with a few exceptions, notably Chrysostom.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

What are the Orthodox churches objections to the doctrine of original sin? It seems the early church believed it (or so is claimed by the RC) with a few exceptions, notably Chrysostom.

It's not the phrase, it's what is meant by it. And, no, the early Fathers show no evidence of believing in Original Sin in the sense that people usually mean. The idea that we are born sinful, born guilty for what Adam did, is the invention of St. Augustine of Hippo and it's that error that lead to the overly juridfical view of salvation found in western Christianity but not in the east. As soon as this teaching of Augustine became known in the east it was rejected as heresy, which is why we se Augustine as a saint for his piety but reject his teachings on the whole and certainly don't hold him in anywhere near the same esteem as the RCs do. I've yet to meet anyone in our Church who considers him a Father, for instance.

Now, what the RCC teaches now, is not Augustinian Original Sin and is, in fact, pretty much the same idea as the Ancestral Sin that the eastern Fathers have talked of since the beginnings of the Church. That is, we are born mortal and with a tendency towards sin as an effect of Adam's turning from God, but we are not responsible for his sin and we are not born with any stain of sin. Our mortality is a consequence of sharing our ancestor's nature, not a curse from God. The current catechims of the RCC spells out this view but it's not so long ago that they held to the Augustinian one - as evidenced by the dogma of the Immmaculate Conception from the 19th century. That makes precisely no sense without Augustinian Original Sin and I'm surprised they still hold to it as the two ideas they curently teach are incompatible.

James

[*Paul*]

So are we born spiritually dead in sin? Or do we die spiritually when we first sin? In your churches opinion?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

So are we born spiritually dead in sin? Or do we die spiritually when we first sin? In your churches opinion?

I don't have a clue what you are asking. The question seems to make no sense at all in an Orthodox context. What do you mean by spiritually dead? We are born as imperfect, mortal creatures whose weakness and the clouding of the image of God, natural consequences of the Fall, cause a tendency towards sin. Sin is missing the mark, not synonymous with crime, if that helps. Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea if this answers your question as I don't understand what you were asking. If it doesn't, could you elaborate please? I'd also suggest that you read the article that you can reach by following the link in my signature. That might well help you better understand.

James

[*Paul*]

Eph 2v1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2v5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2v13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in trespasses and sins refers to us being cut off from God because of sin. In protestantism we are born in this condition and must be born again, we are quickened by Gods grace when we believe the gospel, all our trespasses are forgiven.

In Catholicism we also are born in this condition but are born again as infants when baptised, this is (as you know) is not final but your own merits must be added to this sacrament as well as other sacrements.

We believe we are born this way because of Adams transgression
Rom 5v12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

What sayest thou?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Eph 2v1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2v5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2v13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in trespasses and sins refers to us being cut off from God because of sin. In protestantism we are born in this condition and must be born again, we are quickened by Gods grace when we believe the gospel, all our trespasses are forgiven.

In Catholicism we also are born in this condition but are born again as infants when baptised, this is (as you know) is not final but your own merits must be added to this sacrament as well as other sacrements.

We believe we are born this way because of Adams transgression
Rom 5v12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

What sayest thou?

Neither of those. We were cut off from God when Adam turned from Him. His sin had consequences for all his descendants and as such we are all born mortal, but we are not born with any stain of sin (even the idea sounds weird from an Orthodox point of view). I don't think i would interpret those passages in the way you do, though. Through Christ's Incarnation we are able to turn to God, that's the sense in which He is the mediator between man and God. I'm not sure why you see any necessity for a belief in Original Sin (and I presume you mean this in the Augustinian sense) in any of the passages above. Clearly Paul was writing to adults and all adults without exception have committed sins. That doesn't imply that we are born sinful.

James

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

Neither of those. We were cut off from God when Adam turned from Him. His sin had consequences for all his descendants and as such we are all born mortal, but we are not born with any stain of sin (even the idea sounds weird from an Orthodox point of view). I don't think i would interpret those passages in the way you do, though. Through Christ's Incarnation we are able to turn to God, that's the sense in which He is the mediator between man and God. I'm not sure why you see any necessity for a belief in Original Sin (and I presume you mean this in the Augustinian sense) in any of the passages above. Clearly Paul was writing to adults and all adults without exception have committed sins. That doesn't imply that we are born sinful.

James

James,

I have to disagree here. Children (and slaves) were present at some gatherings of early Christians, and explicitly addressed in both of the letters cited above.

Ephesians 6

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3"that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land."

Colossians 3

20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.