Western Orthodoxy? (Jesus, priests, rituals, tradition, beliefs)

[Elvendon]

Well, I was put on the scent of Eastern Orthodoxy by JamesThePersian on a thread about Origen. I looked it up on wikipedia, and well I must say I'm really impressed. I found the theology convincing and practical - deftly avoiding all the inumberable logical problems that have so plagued western theology while not falling foul of gross deviance from scripture that many Protestant traditions seem to be so prone to. I especially liked the non-judgemental (in the normal, legal sense) aspect of God's nature - it really fits with what I have read in scripture and my deepest beliefs. I take my hat off to you, my eastern bretheren When you called yourselves "Orthodox", you weren't kidding!

Though I find the theology really intellectually satisfying, my main problem is the rituals. The aceticism sounds good, the approach and attitude to the mysteries really resonates with me, but it still doesn't feel of my people, if you know what I mean - iconography, the existence of an Iconostasis seperating the congregation from God in the Holy of Holies, the bright and ornate robes don't really resonate with me at all.

I personally think this is because, as a I am spiritually staunchly anglo-celtic, the Mediterranean robes and rituals don't really fit with me - my soul isn't in it, it just doesn't fit in with my ethnic consciousness. My ancestors always found and reverred the divine in the natural world, rather than in pictures or statues - the stones, trees, rivers and animals were their idols, just as the great temples and pieces of beautiful, representative art were those of your pre-Christian spiritual tradition.

My question is, would it still be considered a form of Orthodoxy if, rather than draw on Hellenistic ritual for inspiration, I were to draw on my own pagan ancestors past practices - using the elements and cardinal directions instead of icons. I did look up the Celtic Orthodox Church, but it shared the iconography that, truth be told, rather repels me.

I am also rather forward looking when it comes to women priests... is the male nature of the priesthood totally against Eastern Orthodoxy?

Thanks, and God Bless.

Elvendon

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Elvendon

Well, I was put on the scent of Eastern Orthodoxy by JamesThePersian on a thread about Origen. I looked it up on wikipedia, and well I must say I'm really impressed. I found the theology convincing and practical - deftly avoiding all the inumberable logical problems that have so plagued western theology while not falling foul of gross deviance from scripture that many Protestant traditions seem to be so prone to. I especially liked the non-judgemental (in the normal, legal sense) aspect of God's nature - it really fits with what I have read in scripture and my deepest beliefs. I take my hat off to you, my eastern bretheren When you called yourselves "Orthodox", you weren't kidding!

Though I find the theology really intellectually satisfying, my main problem is the rituals. The aceticism sounds good, the approach and attitude to the mysteries really resonates with me, but it still doesn't feel of my people, if you know what I mean - iconography, the existence of an Iconostasis seperating the congregation from God in the Holy of Holies, the bright and ornate robes don't really resonate with me at all.

I personally think this is because, as a I am spiritually staunchly anglo-celtic, the Mediterranean robes and rituals don't really fit with me - my soul isn't in it, it just doesn't fit in with my ethnic consciousness. My ancestors always found and reverred the divine in the natural world, rather than in pictures or statues - the stones, trees, rivers and animals were their idols, just as the great temples and pieces of beautiful, representative art were those of your pre-Christian spiritual tradition.

My question is, would it still be considered a form of Orthodoxy if, rather than draw on Hellenistic ritual for inspiration, I were to draw on my own pagan ancestors past practices - using the elements and cardinal directions instead of icons. I did look up the Celtic Orthodox Church, but it shared the iconography that, truth be told, rather repels me.

I am also rather forward looking when it comes to women priests... is the male nature of the priesthood totally against Eastern Orthodoxy?

Thanks, and God Bless.

Elvendon

There is a western rite in Orthodoxy, though to the best of my knowledge there are no western rite parishes in Britain at the moment. If you wanted to find out for certain you could always contact an Antiochian priest (there are quite a number, many converts, in the UK) as it is mainly that church that uses the western rite. It might be more your thing (they generally use either a modified Tridentine Mass or modified traditional Anglican Liturgy, though I believe that some have attempted to resurrect the old Sarum rite). Personally, despite being western, I love the eastern Liturgy and would never want to go back to western style worship, but the possibility is there for those that do.

On women priests, don't hold your breath. I very much doubt that we will ever have them, though some have tentatively raised the issue for consideration. Even if it were to come about it would take a very long time ('Orthodox time' as we jokingly say - somewhere between glacial and geological). It's a very big thing for us to change the tradition of 2000 years and innovation is usually looked on as practically synonymous with heresy. Deaconesses, however, may well soon be back. They existed in the past but have died out. It's obviously not so difficult to resurrect a fdead tradition as it is to change a living one.

One word of warning, the Celtic Orthodox Church is a self-styled heterodox group that is not in communion with any Orthodox church, so they are not a source of information about our faith. There is also a Britiah Orthodox Church that is not in communion with us as they are Oriental Orthodox (mono/miaphysites). A site you might be interested in (because Fr. Andrew really does love to promote the pre-Schism western saints to us Orthodox in England) is:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm

It's the best resource I've seen for the saints of Britain and western Europe.

James

[Elvendon]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

There is a western rite in Orthodoxy, though to the best of my knowledge there are no western rite parishes in Britain at the moment. If you wanted to find out for certain you could always contact an Antiochian priest (there are quite a number, many converts, in the UK) as it is mainly that church that uses the western rite. It might be more your thing (they generally use either a modified Tridentine Mass or modified traditional Anglican Liturgy, though I believe that some have attempted to resurrect the old Sarum rite). Personally, despite being western, I love the eastern Liturgy and would never want to go back to western style worship, but the possibility is there for those that do.

Wow okay thanks... I'll do my research

On women priests, don't hold your breath. I very much doubt that we will ever have them, though some have tentatively raised the issue for consideration. Even if it were to come about it would take a very long time ('Orthodox time' as we jokingly say - somewhere between glacial and geological). It's a very big thing for us to change the tradition of 2000 years and innovation is usually looked on as practically synonymous with heresy. Deaconesses, however, may well soon be back. They existed in the past but have died out. It's obviously not so difficult to resurrect a fdead tradition as it is to change a living one.

That is quite a good idea. One of my ideas that would solve the whole male priest issue is if we made it so if a woman might want to be a priest, she could join a holy order and become a kind of "lay nun" - where she did everything a priest would do and could rise to the equivalent of archbishop, but it wouldn't cause any conflicts with tradition (it was what the Celts did :P)

One word of warning, the Celtic Orthodox Church is a self-styled heterodox group that is not in communion with any Orthodox church, so they are not a source of information about our faith. There is also a Britiah Orthodox Church that is not in communion with us as they are Oriental Orthodox (mono/miaphysites). A site you might be interested in (because Fr. Andrew really does love to promote the pre-Schism western saints to us Orthodox in England) is:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm

It's the best resource I've seen for the saints of Britain and western Europe.

James

Thanks for the site, and I did expect the Celtic Orthodox Church to be rather marginal. I can't say I'd want to join with Oriental Orthodox - I consider the humanity of Jesus to be a vital aspect of the faith.

God Bless

Elvendon

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Elvendon

That is quite a good idea. One of my ideas that would solve the whole male priest issue is if we made it so if a woman might want to be a priest, she could join a holy order and become a kind of "lay nun" - where she did everything a priest would do and could rise to the equivalent of archbishop, but it wouldn't cause any conflicts with tradition (it was what the Celts did :P)

We don't actually have orders (and all monastics are lay unless they are ordained, which nuns clearly can't be) so that doesn't exactly make sense in an Orthodox context. However, a great deal of respect is given to monastics in our Church, be they male or female. They are considered the protectors of the faith and quite a few Orthodox Christians have monastic confessors. It is not unusual to have a monk or nun (the latter particularly for women) as a Spiritual Father/Mother. Personally, I would be in favour of resurrecting the ancient tradition of having deaconesses (and I certainly can't see much of an argument against it) and I know that the Greeks at least are actively considering it (may even actually be doing it already, not sure).

James

[Elvendon]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

We don't actually have orders (and all monastics are lay unless they are ordained, which nuns clearly can't be) so that doesn't exactly make sense in an Orthodox context. However, a great deal of respect is given to monastics in our Church, be they male or female. They are considered the protectors of the faith and quite a few Orthodox Christians have monastic confessors. It is not unusual to have a monk or nun (the latter particularly for women) as a Spiritual Father/Mother. Personally, I would be in favour of resurrecting the ancient tradition of having deaconesses (and I certainly can't see much of an argument against it) and I know that the Greeks at least are actively considering it (may even actually be doing it already, not sure).

James

Yeah. I know what you mean, I definately wouldn't recommend nuns working as day-to-day priests in an Eastern Orthodox context - but they do fit and are probably the best (most traditional) solution here in the west. I would personally be all in favour for Abbeys (in a modern manifestation of course - an order of normal people who have taken a particular vow - of chastity, abstention from a type of food or passtime etc.) taking a more active role in English Christianity, and if they were permitted to provide everyday ministry I would be as happy as larry