God is Hell (punishment, Moses, Sodom, Gomorrah, grace)

[No*s]

I received a question about this matter in another thread, and it's a little beyond the subject of "anger" .

We liken God to a fire, and well, fire is neutral. It is simply there. Whether it burns us or not depends on how we stand in relation to it. If I were to stand near it, it comforts and warms me on a winter day. It can be used to cook my food. It gives me light. In all these things the fire is "good." However, if I were to stick my hand in the fire, it would burn me and would have no compunction about this.

It is the nature of the fire to do both of these things. In no place can we blame the fire for it, because it is simply what it is. It will burn, cook, heat, and give light all the same, and each of these are the same functions.

Another example is that iron, when placed in the fire radiates the fires heat and light, and it may then be shaped. This is iron's nature. It coexists with fire quite well. However, if we were to place a combustable in there, it would simply be consumed. Its makeup ensures that it cannot survive the fire.

In Scripture, God is likened to a fire. This is because God is like a fire. He is What He is, and Hell is our experience of God. When we pass away, God has fashioned us, for whatever reason, to exist with Him. This will mean that we will be with Him regardless of our personal lives.

Here is where the "flaming" aspect of God comes in, and the material aspect. We are like iron or combustable material. When we are placed in God's presence, depending on how we have fashioned ourselves, we will glow or we will be consumed by the fire (but not destroyed, like the bush Moses saw). The problem lies not with God, but with what we are. God simply is what He is, and He will be that regardless of what we do.

The most important metaphor for God is love ("love" here is another metaphor). God is love, and He will not relent. If we place a child in a shack with a loving grandmother and he cannot leave, this experience will be Hell. However, if we place a child who loves his grandmother with the same grandmother, then he will experience great joy. The difference is not in the grandmother, but in the boy.

In Greek, one of the descriptions of God's love is agapi. It refers to a relentless love, one that comes regardless of the recipient's desire or choice. Sometimes this word is even used in relation to obsession. Love is not always pleasant.

God's "love," His being will come regardless of what we want or what we think. Heaven and Hell are simply descriptions of how we will experience that. It changes in our internal universe.

A good document on this is The River of Fire, but the article is more than a little abrasive, so be forewarned.

GHS, I hope this helped some .

[Linus7]

Interesting article, No*s.

I need to read it again and maybe a third time.

Although I agree with its basic premise - and I like all the patristic quotes - I'm not sure it accounts for everything.

It seems to be rather short on the grace of God and focuses instead on qualities inherent in each individual.

It also seems to emphasize God's immutability to an extreme degree, in effect rendering Him completely passive.

I wonder, too, what difference it makes if hell is a place of torment or if God's love is torment for certain individuals.

Torment is torment, after all.

If God knows that His love torments an individual, yet He continues to love that individual - instead of simply annihilating him - isn't that pretty much the same thing as active punishment?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not disagreeing with Dr. Kalomiros.

I simply have questions about that article.

I also think he has probably made a straw man out of the Western position.

[No*s]

Yes, I think he went a bit far in his analysis of the West, but his presentation of the East was prtty good IMO, and that's why I bring it up. The article wasn't principally an argument against Hell as a place, but against substitutionary atonement. My argument was against Hell as a place .

Making Hell a place has the same impact as making grace created...the thing was fashioned specifically for torment. In the other view, it isn't a place, but God has created us for union with Him, and He wants this and will have this regardless of our stance in relation to Him .

[Linus7]

And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness.

I wonder where the grace of God is in all that.

Who will gain release from his sins in this life?

Even the saints recognized that they were sinners in need of God's mercy and grace.

If I am going to have to cure my own wickedness in this life, I'm lost; I can tell you that right now.

So that which will differentiate between one man and another will not be a decision of God, a reward or a punishment from Him, but that which was in each one’s heart; what was there during all our life will be revealed in the Day of Judgment. If there is a reward and a punishment in this revelation—and there really is—it does not come from God but from the love or hate which reigns in our heart. Love has bliss in it, hatred has despair, bitterness, grief, affliction, wickedness, agitation, confusion, darkness, and all the other interior conditions which compose hell (I Cor. 4:6)

My heart is full of all those things at times - despair, bitterness, grief, affliction, wickedness, agitation, confusion, and darkness.

My only hope is the mercy of God in Christ.

If heaven or hell are dependent upon me and my heart, my attitude, etc., then I'm - pardon the expression - toast.

I also wonder who rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord, or the hearts of the inhabitants of those cities?



.

[No*s]

Yes, we are in trouble. That, I think, is where our hope ultimately lies. My heart is pretty corrupt as well, and frankly, I must also hope in Christ...but that's biblical, right ?

[Linus7]

Originally Posted by No*s

Yes, we are in trouble. That, I think, is where our hope ultimately lies. My heart is pretty corrupt as well, and frankly, I must also hope in Christ...but that's biblical, right ?

Yeah, you're right.

I just hope the angels shuffle me in with the sheep at the Last Judgment (Matt. 25:31-46)!

[michel]

This may be absurdly simplistic, but I have always 'viewed' God as a policeman. When I was very young, my Mother told me that policemen were there to help people, if they were 'good'; if I was 'naughty', then the policeman would be cross with me.

I have often heard parents threatening their children with the policeman; how can, I wonder, can these children learn respect from the police ? - and not blatant fear ?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by michel

This may be absurdly simplistic, but I have always 'viewed' God as a policeman. When I was very young, my Mother told me that policemen were there to help people, if they were 'good'; if I was 'naughty', then the policeman would be cross with me.

I have often heard parents threatening their children with the policeman; how can, I wonder, can these children learn respect from the police ? - and not blatant fear ?

Mich, I think that's a pretty good analogy there. Like all analogies, it cannot be pushed too far, but it's pretty good for showing the dual nature of God in how we experience Him (based entirely on who we are) .

[No*s]

Given the threads over Hell and the ones that are using it as a premise, I felt I should bump this up to provide a good alternative view again (granting this isn't a debate arena lol).

So *BUMP!*