Hare Krishna Movement

[zenzero]

Friend Anti-religion,

But he is calling out names of fellow philosophers in his commentary and deriding them .This is a great disservice to the scriptures themselves.He is a dust particle in front of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

Prabupada lacks spiritual realisation,

By the above comments are we not guilty of the same mistakes as the one whom we are declaring as *guilty*?
Kindly UNDERSTAND that each individual has to totally merge with existence from which we come out off and are a part but our *thoughts* which is also the *ego* does not allow this to happen so easily BUT for this same reason each individual has to take different forms till the merger is complete. Likewise everything and everyone is part of existence including you, me and Prabhupada. Prabhupada has *stilled* his thoughts to a large extent and so surely if his karma balance is left, he will have to take another form to complete it. Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi might not need another birth is immaterial. What is important is how far we have reached? Prabhupada surely reached somewhere as he has started an international organiszation called ISKON which itself is not possible without great karma.
If one sees positivity of others and negativity of oneself, one lives in heaven but when the opposite becomes true we create our own hell.

LOve & rgds

[Anti-religion]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Friend Anti-religion,
By the above comments are we not guilty of the same mistakes as the one whom we are declaring as *guilty*?
Kindly UNDERSTAND that each individual has to totally merge with existence from which we come out off and are a part but our *thoughts* which is also the *ego* does not allow this to happen so easily BUT for this same reason each individual has to take different forms till the merger is complete. Likewise everything and everyone is part of existence including you, me and Prabhupada. Prabhupada has *stilled* his thoughts to a large extent and so surely if his karma balance is left, he will have to take another form to complete it. Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi might not need another birth is immaterial. What is important is how far we have reached? Prabhupada surely reached somewhere as he has started an international organiszation called ISKON which itself is not possible without great karma.
If one sees positivity of others and negativity of oneself, one lives in heaven but when the opposite becomes true we create our own hell.

LOve & rgds

uh right....
Thanks for reminding of the teaching.

[Marco19]

i think that Prabupada had some spiritual qualities,
but his teachings were Fundamentalism, therefore you may notice that his followers are not open minded, and hardly could make a dialogue without offensive thoughts...

[Onkarah]

Interesting points Marco.

The difficulty arises when we have to reject previous philosophy in order to assert our own. To base a philosophy on rejection of it predecesor is acceptable in Vedanta but can be quite repugnant at times. Hence I find some the comments and works by ISKON is vehemently against previous schools, even at the cost of branding the followers as "uninteligent". This affirmation helps the devotee stay focused and committed to the 'true religion'. The devotee can feel sure they are 'doing good' and are on the right path, even if they may lack the clarity or conviction intially. This 'rejecton of others to find the truth' approach works well in some abrahamic faiths too, but for those who find the act of rejection a difficult foundaiton on which to build love for all, then it can be quite an off putting ideology on which to start.

The emotional part of us is quicker to think and react than the intellectual part. Thus, in my opinion, one can build quite a strong devotional faith based on the sensation of feeling right, godly and just whilst outrightly rejecting others as being doomed or failing spiriturally in some way.

This "quick emotional learning" makes some sense when you think that ancient man, must learn pretty rapidly what food, animals or places to avoid and what to indulge in nature in order to survive. Ancient man may not have had time to intellectualise over why going into a dark cave is bad idea, but even today, most of us emotionally sense an emotional alarm bell when presented with entering a dark unknown cave. However when we add religious rhetoric and blind devotion to our emotions then we risk more than just posining ourselves on a few berries or stumbling in the dark. We can actually start to harm others in our zealistic proselytism.

My post of course fails to capture the beauty and beneficial sides of zealous faith. Which I have no doubt could be elaborated upon by those better qualified, should the words come to their finger tips

[krishnakanta]

Originally Posted by marco1890

i think that Prabupada had some spiritual qualities,
but his teachings were Fundamentalism, therefore you may notice that his followers are not open minded, and hardly could make a dialogue without offensive thoughts...

let's not generalize here. i know plenty of absolutely beautiful hare krishnas who express love in all they do. just because one holds firmly to their faith doesn't mean they can't have dialogue or are some how inferior.

Aum Hari Aum!

[Anti-religion]

Originally Posted by Onkarah

Interesting points Marco.

The difficulty arises when we have to reject previous philosophy in order to assert our own.

Just look at these statements.

Indeed every major religion, and "ism" of the world has suffered to some degree the infection of mayavada. We find ourselves bombarded by the false lullaby of oneness in poetry, literature, on TV or the car radio. The "I am you and we are God so we can do no wrong" concept has even been used in the upscale advertising of Japanese electronics in slick periodicals; the con being that "since we are one, there can be no cheating here."

There is no truth to the rascal Mayavada idea that after liberation we all intermingle and become a homogeneous lump.“I have become God. We are all God.” This rascal atheistic philosophy has killed the whole world. Ask anyone if they accept. Ask him to his face: “Do you accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead?” If he says, “No,” tell him, “Then you are a rascal.” That’s all. There is no exception.
Vaishnava blog feeds » Blog Archive » Srila Prabhupada’s nectar on mayavada


They’ll talk of Krsna, so many things but they’re not devotees. Just like Kamsa. They may talk of Krsna or think of Krsna, but they don’t accept Krsna as the Supreme. Therefore they are demons. This is the test…

Devotee: The Jains have the same kind of philosophy also.

Prabhupada: Everyone. All philosophies, they are more or less Mayavada. All Mayavada. Different types of Mayavada philosophy. Therefore they should be discarded. Hare Krsna. Thank you very much. What you are, all students?
Mayavada–a very dangerous philosophy [Morning Walk--MP3 Audio] | Hare Krishna Community

Sankaracarya's belief is personal. Actually he is a covered personalist. He became impersonalist just to drive away Buddhism. All of India was Buddhist voidism. So, although a personalist, he had to keep pace with voidism by expounding impersonalism. There is very little difference between impersonalism and voidism, but because he had to bring Buddhists back to the Vedic cultural form, he adopted impersonalism.

Actually Buddha philosophy does not accept God, neither soul. They simply philosophize on the material elements, and they want to finish the material exis..., dismantle the material elements. Nirvana. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu has remarked that the Buddhists are honest. They frankly say that "We don't accept your Vedas." But the Shankarites, they are cheaters, because they are accepting Vedas, but on the basis of Buddha philosophy. That is cheating."
The Hare Krsnas - Disciplic Succession - Vaisnava Sampradayas - Shankaracarya's Mayavada School

It is amazing...there is lot of intellectual arrogance in Hare Krishna philosophy .

Basically there is lack of knowledge of mayavada principle in these Hare Krishna's.They do not know that Buddhism and advaita is complete self-nullification.

They want in to believe in one God.i.e Krishna.They say man equates himself with God in advaita which is wrong.While agree some points in advaita can mislead to self-boasting .But that is not what it is intended for.

In advaita Vedanta,Brahman and Krishna(personal god) are indifferent.Not that Krishna is under maya ,we are under the influence of mind i.e maya.There is no ego here.There is brahman alone ,not even 1% "I " in advaita state.It is the Brahman which I ,you and everything else.Even a basic study of Yoga sutra of patanjali ,would say that there is no Subject - Object duality in final samadhi state.

This is put forth in the Maha Upanishad and Uttara gita.

‘Good Sir, man may have a four-fold certitude.

‘Engendered by (my) mother and father, I am (the body) from the foot to the head. This particular certitude, O Brahmin, results from the observation of the worries of bondage !

‘Good men have second kind of certitude that promotes liberation – viz.: "I am beyond all objects and beings; I am subtler than the tip of a hair".

‘Best of Brahmins, a third kind of certitude has been affirmed promotive of liberation alone (consisting in the thought) " All this objective world, the entire indestructible universe, is but myself".

‘Also there is a fourth certitude, yielding liberation (that consists of the assertion) "I and the entire world are empty and sky-like at all times".

‘Of these the first is said (to result from) the craving that earns bondage. Those having the last three are sportive, extremely pure and are liberated in this (very) life. Their cravings have been (wholly) purified.

Advaitins tell that they are everything,because they are nothing.There is no-mind in advaita/Buddha state. I am quoting Minor Upanishads which are not authoritative ,just like how Hare Krishna quote extensively about Krishna from Bhagavata Purana which is not even a Shruti.

The advaita vedanta ,divides the reality into three levels:

1.The transcendental or the Pāramārthika level in which Brahman is the only reality and nothing else;Here the small drop jiva homogeneously merges with the infinite ocean (Brahman).What now exist is Brahman(ocean) alone.--Superconscious Nirvikalpa state

2.The pragmatic or the Vyāvahārika level in which both Jiva (living creatures or individual souls) and Iswara are true; here, the material world is also true, and,----Waking State till Savikalpa Samadhi

3.The apparent or the Prāthibhāsika level in which material world reality is actually false, like illusion of a snake over a rope or a dream.--Dream state

So,Advaita is true in paramarthika state not in vyavaharika level.In this state I am god ,you are god ,and all is god.There is only god ,which is one without a second.So,the statement :Aham Brahmasmi is not hanging in the air.Sarvam edam(all this) Brahman is true.

All these staes have been explained in the All these states have been explained in the Gaudapada Karika.

Moreover world is true in Vyāvahārika level only .The world is not totally untrue.It is true in phenomenal sense and untrue in paramartika sense.

I have few Questions to ask for those "maya" is a crap and world is absolutely true.

1.Why is the " true" world not seen in the dream state ?
2.Why there is no creation-creator duality in the dream state?
3.Question to Dvaitins:If God is omnipresent,then how can jiva be completely different from Paramatma?

Their concept of Buddhism is Juvenile to say the least :

Read the Heart Sutra:

Sariputra, form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.

Then if we are to take that emptiness itself is an object and look for its essence, again we will find that it is empty of inherent existence. Therefore the Buddha taught the emptiness of emptiness.

[Onkarah]

You present some good points and difficult questions, Anti-Religion.

An interesting aspect which arises from that of Mandukya Upanishad is that for duality to appear, it must appear in one of the first two states: wake or dream. Duality ceases to be experienced in deep sleep and turiya. From this one can accept that duality is a natural phenomenon of wake and dream states. In the wakeful state I, the subject, experience objects. Whilst awake I am in a dualistic world of name and form, subject and object.

If we now go back to the topic in hand, that of the Hare Krishna Movement, we are presented with the point that worship of Krishna can only occur during the states of wake or in dream i.e. whilst there is duality. Because it is only during the states of wake and dream that there is an object (Krishna in the form of Murthi, Avatar etc) to be worshiped by a subject (devotee in the human form of you and me).

So what’s the point?

So, the point is that for the Hare Krishna movement the state of wake with the inevitable duality of worshiped and worshiper is a must have for the soul's success. In order to worship Krishna and earn entry to Krishna’s Goloka (heaven) there must be a state of duality (worshipper and the worshipped).

Could we not go further and use this to explain why the Hare Krishna movement has the goal of spreading Krishna Consciousness and recruiting souls to its movement? Is it not logical that the Hare Krishna requires the recruitment of others into the movement in order for them to enter Goloka and in order to make the movement quantifiable in its success? It should then be no surprise that non-dual philosophy is useless and contrary for the movement and should be put down at every chance.

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My point is not to bash the Hare Krishna movement, which I assume has brought much peace, love and happiness to individuals since its foundation. I hope by this post that people in general can come to better understanding of why Advaita is so vehemently rejected and stop the temptation to take the rejection of other faiths too personally. Live and let live, love all!
Aum, Shanti!

[Wannabe Yogi]

Originally Posted by Anti-religion

Just look at these statements.
It is amazing...there is lot of intellectual arrogance in Hare Krishna philosophy

If I want to read about the Hare Krishna world view. I go straight to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He was to busy singing, dancing, loving Krishna and serving mankind. To think about anything else but love. After a while in maya all philosophies become degraded.

Jai Radhe

[Anti-religion]

Originally Posted by Onkarah

My point is not to bash the Hare Krishna movement, which I assume has brought much peace, love and happiness to individuals since its foundation. I hope by this post that people in general can come to better understanding of why Advaita is so vehemently rejected and stop the temptation to take the rejection of other faiths too personally. Live and let live, love all!
Aum, Shanti!

Yes the problem with advaita is that projection of non-dualist states on wakeful states ,by those who have not realized the Self.They may even think no real work on oneself is necessary, only a constant repetitive denial of one's identity and the 'understanding' that the ego and all (and everything) that happens (essence and belief systems included) is 'just an illusion'. Everything ‘just happens, there is no path’, so there is nothing to do.

But true advaita is the deepest spiritual teaching, and apprehension of the nondual reality requires transcendence of the mind, both in its verbal and nonverbal (imaging) aspects. At minimum, this can take a great deal of sincerity, devotion and willingness to surrender , or even decades of spiritual practices.

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

If I want to read about the Hare Krishna world view. I go straight to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He was to busy singing, dancing, loving Krishna and serving mankind. To think about anything else but love. After a while in maya all philosophies become degraded.

Jai Radhe

Some Hare Krishna's themselves have themselves become equal to mayavadas.

[Madhuri]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

If I want to read about the Hare Krishna world view. I go straight to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He was to busy singing, dancing, loving Krishna and serving mankind. To think about anything else but love.
Jai Radhe

Lord Chaitanya's teaching were beautiful and perfect to me. I wish the gaudiya vaishnava communities has not branched away from them. However, there are certainly those among them who maintain the original teachings and do not get sucked into the dogma.