relationship between Dharma, Karma and Moksha? (ritual, tradition, Buddhism, reincarnation)

[Seyorni]

Interesting.
I'm good with words, but often don't really know what I'm trying to get at!

Could we be describing two sides of the same coin?

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

Interesting.
I'm good with words, but often don't really know what I'm trying to get at!

Could we be describing two sides of the same coin?

i'm probably describing the left side of the pound, while you're talking about the right side of the dollar

it makes sense in my head now, i had forgotten about Jita, must keep that in mind lol.

[Hema]

Hi Mike, I’ve copied and pasted stuff from some of my previous posts. Ain’t I a genius?

To start with, I’ve included one of my previous posts about the caste system. I saw that you mentioned caste and I know that there are certain misconceptions about the caste system.

Hinduism and Caste system - In my country, Hindus do not have this caste system where some are lower caste and untouchable. I think the caste system is more practised in India. However, there are also many Indians living in India who do not advocate the caste system either. Hinduism does not promote one being as being higher than the other. The Bhagvad Gita says that God is manifested in all of creation. Therefore, he is equally present in people of all races, religions and social standings. I think the caste is totally misunderstood and blown out of proportion. Caste is really what people do in their daily lives. For eg. there are labourers, business dealers, warriors etc. It simply means that we have different roles in society. It doesn't mean that one is more important. If the garbage collectors went on strike, it would be a huge inconvenience for many people. Furthermore, when the Lord came in his Avatar of Shri Ram, he ate food which was previously bitten by his devotee - an old woman named Sevari. For people who believe in the untouchable castes, eating food from such people would be forbidden. Shri Ram blessed his devotee. Many were not as fortunate as she was. So, if the Lord openly accepts a low caste woman, why should any ordinary mortal look down on his/her brothers and sisters?

Well, that’s that. Here is some stuff on Karma, Dharma and Moksha from a Hindu perspective.

Karma – for every action there is a reaction. When we hurt others, we must suffer for it in this life or the next. For this reason, we (Hindus) are not supposed to eat meat because it will be like attaining joy out of an innocent creature’s suffering and death. The law of karma brings me to reincarnation. We believe in reincarnation because God is forgiving so he will not send us to an eternity of suffering for our bad deeds. He gives us numerous “second chances” to work off our negative karma. By doing good deeds we can offset out past bad karma and help to generate good karma for the future, so we are not predestined to suffer. From God we have come and to him we shall all return. When all karma is resolved and we are spiritual enough, we break free of the cycle of birth and death and we become one with God.

Dharma – cannot be translated into English. Basically it is righteous living; it is a way of life. This is how we should be living at all times. When Dharma is on the decline, God manifests as an Avatar to reinforce Dharma – it does not mean that God becomes limited to this one form. It is sort of like how God is manifested within each of us – similarly God is manifested in the Avatar, but the Avatar is a powerful manifestation.

Moksha – this signifies liberation. Moksha occurs when one becomes free of the cycle of birth and death and becomes one with God. Realized souls, such as the ancient Sages could have attained Moksha whilst still alive. For the majority of us, it comes after death.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Hema

Hi Mike, I’ve copied and pasted stuff from some of my previous posts. Ain’t I a genius?

To start with, I’ve included one of my previous posts about the caste system. I saw that you mentioned caste and I know that there are certain misconceptions about the caste system.

Hinduism and Caste system - In my country, Hindus do not have this caste system where some are lower caste and untouchable. I think the caste system is more practised in India. However, there are also many Indians living in India who do not advocate the caste system either. Hinduism does not promote one being as being higher than the other. The Bhagvad Gita says that God is manifested in all of creation. Therefore, he is equally present in people of all races, religions and social standings. I think the caste is totally misunderstood and blown out of proportion. Caste is really what people do in their daily lives. For eg. there are labourers, business dealers, warriors etc. It simply means that we have different roles in society. It doesn't mean that one is more important. If the garbage collectors went on strike, it would be a huge inconvenience for many people. Furthermore, when the Lord came in his Avatar of Shri Ram, he ate food which was previously bitten by his devotee - an old woman named Sevari. For people who believe in the untouchable castes, eating food from such people would be forbidden. Shri Ram blessed his devotee. Many were not as fortunate as she was. So, if the Lord openly accepts a low caste woman, why should any ordinary mortal look down on his/her brothers and sisters?

Well, that’s that. Here is some stuff on Karma, Dharma and Moksha from a Hindu perspective.

Karma – for every action there is a reaction. When we hurt others, we must suffer for it in this life or the next. For this reason, we (Hindus) are not supposed to eat meat because it will be like attaining joy out of an innocent creature’s suffering and death. The law of karma brings me to reincarnation. We believe in reincarnation because God is forgiving so he will not send us to an eternity of suffering for our bad deeds. He gives us numerous “second chances” to work off our negative karma. By doing good deeds we can offset out past bad karma and help to generate good karma for the future, so we are not predestined to suffer. From God we have come and to him we shall all return. When all karma is resolved and we are spiritual enough, we break free of the cycle of birth and death and we become one with God.

Dharma – cannot be translated into English. Basically it is righteous living; it is a way of life. This is how we should be living at all times. When Dharma is on the decline, God manifests as an Avatar to reinforce Dharma – it does not mean that God becomes limited to this one form. It is sort of like how God is manifested within each of us – similarly God is manifested in the Avatar, but the Avatar is a powerful manifestation.

Moksha – this signifies liberation. Moksha occurs when one becomes free of the cycle of birth and death and becomes one with God. Realized souls, such as the ancient Sages could have attained Moksha whilst still alive. For the majority of us, it comes after death.

thanks Hema!

you said "The Bhagvad Gita says that God is manifested in all of creation. Therefore, he is equally present in people of all races, religions and social standings." and "Furthermore, when the Lord came in his Avatar of Shri Ram, he ate food which was previously bitten by his devotee - an old woman named Sevari. For people who believe in the untouchable castes, eating food from such people would be forbidden." - are these references to verses in the sanskrit texts? if so, do you know the verses? and is there an online translation of the texts?

[Hema]

Originally Posted by Mike182

thanks Hema!

you said "The Bhagvad Gita says that God is manifested in all of creation. Therefore, he is equally present in people of all races, religions and social standings." and "Furthermore, when the Lord came in his Avatar of Shri Ram, he ate food which was previously bitten by his devotee - an old woman named Sevari. For people who believe in the untouchable castes, eating food from such people would be forbidden." - are these references to verses in the sanskrit texts? if so, do you know the verses? and is there an online translation of the texts?

Hi again. The reference to Shri Ram is from the Holy Ramayan. I'm sorry but I don't know the exact verse. The Ramayan was originally written in Sanskrit by Valmiki and translated by Sant Tulsidas into a language that the common person could understand. I just did a little google search and I came across a site based on the Ramayan - http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ramayana.shtml
However, there is a verse in the Ramayan that goes like this (My spelling may be wrong, God forgive me)..."Seeya Ram Mein Saba Jaga Jaani, Karahu Pranam Jori Jug Pani." This means something to the effect of - Recognizing Sita and Ram (two manifestations of the Divine depicted in the Holy Ramayan) as being present everywhere, I humbly offer my Pranam (offerings of love and devotion to the Lord).

I also found the Bhagvad Gita online at -
http://oaks.nvg.org/pv6bk5.html

These are excerpts from the Bhagvad Gita taken from-
http://reluctant-messenger.com/bhagavad-gita.htm
"After knowing the transcendental science, O Arjuna, you shall not again become deluded like this. With this knowledge you shall see the entire creation within your own higher Self, and thus within Me. (See also 6.29, 6.30, 11.07, 11.13) (4.35)"

"I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of all creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)"

"Lord Krishna said: O Arjuna, behold My hundreds and thousands of multifarious divine forms of different colors and shapes. Behold all the celestial beings, and many wonders never seen before. Also behold the entire creation ¾ animate, inanimate, and whatever else you like to see ¾ all at one place in My body. (11.05-07)"

"He is inside as well as outside all beings, animate and inanimate. He is incomprehensible because of His subtlety. And because of His omnipresence, He is very near ¾ residing in one’s inner psyche; as well as far away ¾ in the Supreme Abode. (13.15)"

[Aupmanyav]

Seyorni, I appreciate your post. Here is my take on it:

Dharma: Your duties and responsibilities to family and society.
Karma: Your actions. Heaven and hell are the karma-phala (results of action) for those who believe that.
Moksha: You get out of the cycle of birth and death.

A second meaning (as I take it) could also mean understanding life, so that you know there is no other birth and death. In that case, there is no cause-and-effect, no carry-over of karma. This is my 'advaita' position.

We come from the primordial soup and return to it. Then it becomes a threat to the ignorant, act according to Dharma or else (you go to hell). The knowledgeable would understand that we must follow Dharma because without it family and society would not survive, thereby, endangering survival of even the individauls.

The difference in hinduism and buddhism about Dharma as Random mentions is this: For buddhists it is teaching of Buddha, for hindus it is eternal, basically the law of the society, nobody enunciates it, though it is recorded as it was in their times by law-givers in their smritis, such as Yagnyawalkya Smriti, Manu Smriti, or even my grandfather's Vishweshwara Smriti (1945).

[Aupmanyav]

Originally Posted by Mike182

should all who adhere to Dharma aim for becoming a renouncer? as i understand it, the renouncer ashrama is the life of meditation and prayer aim at revealing the veil of illusion to reach Moksha... but please correct me if i am wrong

or should each fulfill in their current life the Dharma (duty) given to them, so that their next incarnation will allow them a higher Ashrama-Dharma and a better Jita?

or have i just made that up entirely?

Dont worry. It is simply not understanding our position. There is a time for everything. During the first 25 years, a person studies (Brahmacharya stage/Ashram). 25 to 50, raises a family, supports society, serves elders (Grihasta Ashram). Next 25 years (50-75), stays with the family, does not involve too much in day-to-day affairs, advises if necessary, seeks better understanding of life (Vanaprastha Ashram). Last 25 years or whatever, leaves family, no responsibility, engages in worship, basically waits for the final call (Sanyas Ashram).

Trying to leave responsibilities in the first three stages is direliction of duties and hinduism would not condone it in other than exceptional cases (Buddha, Mahavir, Sankaracharya, Nanak). Hindus believe that the veil of ignorance can be removed even while performing one's 'Dharma'. What is to be renounced is attachment and not Dharma or duties or family or society. It is fulfilling 'Dharma' that will entitle hindus to to born with better intelligence and understanding, money and status are unimportant. That is for those who believe in such a scheme. As I wrote, for me as an advaitin, there is no second birth.

You have used the word which does not exist, 'jita'. It is actually 'punar-janma' or re-incarnation. Or perhaps you meant 'jeeva' (living beings).

'So people in different castes aim in the same lifetime for the same goal?' No need to get confused. Yes, people in all castes or one without any caste (lowest) aim in the same lifetime for the same goal. As per believers, it may be easier for brahmins, 1. They have some good karmas to be born as brahmins, 2. They have better education and environment to reach the goal. But it is not out-of-reach for others. Thousands upon thousands of the less fortunate have been able to achieve that and hinduism remembers them as their most revered. VedaVyas - the compiler of Vedas, Brahmasutra, and Srimad BhagawadPurana, Vidur - the most knowledgeable person in Krishna's time, Valmiki - the writer of Ramayana, Sage Satyakama Jabali in Vedic times, Kabir, Ravidas, Dadu (you would not know about them), many azhawar (Vaishnava) and nayanar (Shaiva) saints of South India were shudras. Being a brahmin is a convenience but not a necessity. If a brahmin does not get enlightenment it tells very poorly of him (he got all the opportunities and failed), if a shudra (lower caste) gets enlightenment, it is doubly creditable (he did it in spite of all difficulties).