Speaking to God (Deists, soul, creation, church, pray)

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by CelticRavenwolf

And what if all of the deities of the world - Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, Shiva, Morrigan, Odin, etc - are in actuality lesser deities that have a vested interest in humanity. What if these are the beings that actually observe and interfere in human life, leaving the grander picture for the One Deity to deal with?

That's an interesting perspective, CR. It strikes me as more pagan than Deist, but it's also a unique combination of the two.

I hate to detract from the spirit of your post, but the Deist in me would want to know why 'outsiders' of any kind would take an interest in human life. I'd have all the same questions of them I have for the 'revealed' theistic gods, because active involvement would imply selective intervention [see the related topic in this forum], the possible return of the Problem of Evil (though not necessarily), and rather ineffective communication methods [see the topic on second-hand revelation].

On the other hand, I do like the idea of combining different religious concepts together in the search for truth. Thanks for offering a fun new idea to kick around!

[CelticRavenwolf]

Lol! Anything to put a new spin on things!

You raised some good questions, WO. Let's see what I can make of them:

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

...why 'outsiders' of any kind would take an interest in human life. I'd have all the same questions of them I have for the 'revealed' theistic gods, because active involvement would imply selective intervention...

Maybe for the same reasons that some people take interest in the conservation of wildlife? Maybe these gods had a hand in creating mankind - got different tribes or countries to play with, or something - and as such have an interest in taking care of and/or keeping an eye on their creation. Or just like to cause trouble amongst such a mentally bizarre species. Maybe they're just fascinated by us, and like conservation scientist, observe and sometimes interfere with our species actions.

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

...the possible return of the Problem of Evil...

Not necessarily a problem. I guess my theory would imply that these "lesser" deities would be imperfect, and as such capable of both good and evil, or fighting between each other with positive and negative influences over humans (ie: Yahweh vs. Lucifer). People have free choice and thus make crappy decisions under both theories.

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

...and rather ineffective communication methods...

Too true. Maybe that's all part of the fun! Gods were historically very vocal in intimate with their respective peoples - maybe they've backed off in their meddling considerably or something. *shrugs* You've got me on that one!

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by CelticRavenwolf

Reading that made me think of an interesting idea. What if there is only One deity, but it is a faceless, nameless deity that creates, but is not directly involved in human life? And what if all of the deities of the world - Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, Shiva, Morrigan, Odin, etc - are in actuality lesser deities that have a vested interest in humanity. What if these are the beings that actually observe and interfere in human life, leaving the grander picture for the One Deity to deal with?

That's not that far off from the Hindu view. In Hinduism there is Atman or Brahman, who is God, but we can't truly understand Atman being finite as we are. But Brahman has different aspects: Brahma - creator, Vishnu - preserver, and Shiva - recycler, who are a little easier for us to relate to. Brahman does not interact with us (actually neither does Brahma) but Vishnu and Shiva occasionally do. Especially Vishnu, as he actually likes us (whereas the other two aspects of the Hindu trinity are more indifferent to us). And Vishnu actually incarnates as different avatars, the most famous one of which is Krishna, so that he can interact with people, directly walking amongst us. And then there are all the lesser devas - for example, Agni the fire god.

It doesn't seem like too big a leap to think that the same thing happened in other cultures. There is the One God, call It what you will, and then there's all the rest.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

"Davidium", a member of this site, founded dynamicdeism.org and is currently a ministerial student. He has a unique Deist perspective, and I found this 'mini-sermon' of his worth sharing. Of course, on his Deism board, it generated a discussion around whether God is actually observing in the sense we understand, but I found it inspiring anyway. :
- - - - - -

I have never spoken with Gaughan, but he speaks to me through his paintings...

I have never spoken with Walt Whitman, but he speaks to me through his poetry...

I have never spoken with Bishop John Spong, but he has spoken to me through his writing...

I have never spoken with Gandhi, but he has spoken to me through his life.

I have never spoken with Dag Hammarskjold, but he has spoken to me with his actions.

I have never spoken with God, but he/she/it has spoken to me through the creation. Through thunderstorms, Through a sunset, through the movement of ants, through the beauty of the universe, through all of creation, God speaks to me. God's words inspire awe, wonder, emotion, love, and curiosity in me. Sometimes, I think I/We exist simply because we can appreciate what is before us... God's Masterwork.

Now, if you ask me if I speak to God... my answer is that I hope to.

I hope that I can speak to God with my life. Each time I counsel someone in grief, I am speaking to God. Each time I recycle, I am speaking to God. Each time I take on an activist cause to better the world, I am speaking to God. Each time I celebrate a life-event with someone, I am speaking to God.

Each time I try and make a difference in our world, I am speaking to God.

My life is my prayer. And I believe it may well be the only kind of prayer that God hears.

How is David? Tell him that we miss him! Yes, I find his views to be a little unusual amongst Deists (tho he's told me that he's not that unusual). Methinks he can't help but be influenced by Unitarian Universalism. (He's studying to be a UU minister.) While we UUs try to be rational, we also try to maintain a spiritual practice, and also to see things in a way in which both the rational and the mystical can be true at the same time.

If you're hanging with David, then you are in good company.

"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
- William Ellery Channing, founder of American Unitarianism

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by lilithu

If you're hanging with David, then you are in good company.

Couldn't agree more, lilithu. We don't hear from him quite as much, since his studies are taking up most of his time. I'll pass along the positive responses.

[Davidium]

Thanks WO for putting that piece of mine back out there. I had not read it myself in over a year. Interesting, with as much as I have changed, I still beleive every word of it.

I dont make it to forums much anymore... between my ministry studies, my own ministry with the recruits at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, regular preaching at UU Congregations, recently getting married, and being commissioned an Army Second Lieutenant and Chaplaincy Candidate, most of my internet time recently has been spent either in research or answering emails.

But, everyonce in awhile I do check in at some of my old forum haunts to read what is going on.

Lilithu, it is good to hear from you as well... and know you can always email me. I'm still around, just amazingly busy. Oh, and if you check out UU World, they recently did an article on myself and Seanan Holland (It will be in the Summer print version). I also have chapters in two books coming out this summer, both to be introduced at the UU General Assembly in Portland, Oregon. One is a chapter on Military Chaplaincy in the book "Reverend X: The New Wave of UU Ministry" and the other is a Chapter on Zen Buddhist Precepts in the "2007 Meadville Lombard Reader".

I would love to hear from you lillithu... send me an email.

Yours in Faith,

David

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Davidium

Thanks WO for putting that piece of mine back out there. I had not read it myself in over a year. Interesting, with as much as I have changed, I still beleive every word of it.

I dont make it to forums much anymore... between my ministry studies, my own ministry with the recruits at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, regular preaching at UU Congregations, recently getting married, and being commissioned an Army Second Lieutenant and Chaplaincy Candidate, most of my internet time recently has been spent either in research or answering emails.

But, everyonce in awhile I do check in at some of my old forum haunts to read what is going on.

Lilithu, it is good to hear from you as well... and know you can always email me. I'm still around, just amazingly busy. Oh, and if you check out UU World, they recently did an article on myself and Seanan Holland (It will be in the Summer print version). I also have chapters in two books coming out this summer, both to be introduced at the UU General Assembly in Portland, Oregon. One is a chapter on Military Chaplaincy in the book "Reverend X: The New Wave of UU Ministry" and the other is a Chapter on Zen Buddhist Precepts in the "2007 Meadville Lombard Reader".

I would love to hear from you lillithu... send me an email.

Yours in Faith,

David

Very cool, and congrats on the nuptials. Methinks the last time we talked you were engaged by not yet married. Your work with the Army is not surprising. Neither is the preaching or the fact that you're tremendously busy. But um... when did you take up Zen Buddhism?

[Davidium]

Why Lillithu... aren't you the one who once suggested I might need a spiritual practice?



David