Kent school Bible club dispute becomes a federal case (Jesus Christ, Latter-Day Saints)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Personally I don't have a problem with it. I do think such a club is better in a church, but if a group of Christians want to socially isolate themselves, why not let them?

Only because, in practice, there are other groups that will not be allowed to use school property at all, because they are unpopular.

Can you imagine a Luciferian Club being allowed to have any kind of club here in the South?

Ain't happenin'.

[dawny0826]

I took a Bible class in HS, though I was not an atheist.

Was it "not the class for me"?

The intent and purpose of the club in the article wasn't to educate others...it was a club for fellowship, where those of like faith and similar biblical beliefs could meet together.

It would be completely different if the purpose of the club was to educate and share with others but that wasn't their intent.

There's no reason to limit membership, whether they get funds or not.

I disagree. I think they have the right to limit membership just as football teams have the right not to accept certain people based upon their skills and qualifications or drama clubs have the right not to allow certain people to star in their productions based upon their criteria. I don't see any difference between a club like this Christian club and any other school organization or club.

We had any number of religious groups in college. Membership was open. We had Catholic, general Christian, Lutheran, Jewish and Baha'i clubs. Anyone could go to anything, and no one had a problem, ever.

And it probably should be this way but again...from my understanding of the article...they wanted to meet with fellow students who were on the same page as they were.

If you can't play an instrument, you should probably not take part in the Jazz Band either.

This was kind of the point I was trying to make. If one isn't Christian and doesn't view the Bible as being the inspired Word of God...why would they care to join the club in the first place?

Clubs are a different animal. If you'd wanted to join the Spanish club just to eat the "flan" they had for a snack, would they have refused you?

I don't know, Booko. Spanish was the one language in high school that I didn't take and was the one club that I didn't even bother looking into.

It appears that they are the ones doing the discriminating, and they expect taxpayer dollars to support that discrimination. Am I reading the article wrong?

What about the discrimination that goes on with every other school activity and club?

If this club should be required to accept EVERYONE or have it written down on paper that everyone is invited to join...then every other sports team and club should do the same. But they don't.

If you don't qualify...you're not in. But football is still funded or assisted. Other groups are funded.

In this particular club...their qualifications were...you need to be Christian and you need to have the same definition of "bible" or you're not going to fit in.

I'm sorry but I don't see the difference here.

Please give examples of where school clubs have made anyone sign a paper agreeing to certain beliefs. I haven't heard of that one yet, but maybe someone has done such a thing.

I've been in clubs where I pledged to the cause of the club and if I didn't agree to the rules and regulations...I couldn't participate. In a sense, I had to conform to their standards...or I wasn't in.

This is a religious based club...centered around religious beliefs. I don't think it unreasonable that their pledges revolve around religious themes.

I could've joined the Jewish club at college if I'd wanted to. I did attend several meetings. I was welcomed. No one had to agree to any belief system before being let in the door.

And that's really how I think it should be but the purpose of this club was to fellowship with fellow classmates of like faith. They really should have met off school grounds but I still commend them for standing up for themselves. I don't believe that the situation would have been exploited if this was another type of club.

Tell me, Dawny, do you suppose no one would mind seeing their public school taxpayer money fund a Wiccan-only club?

I think they have the right to Wiccan-only club. And if the club involves students of a particular school...meeting and fellowshipping...why shouldn't taxpayer money fund the club. If my child were Wiccan and I was paying tax dollars for them to attend a public school...why not? Realistically, they'd probably have a hard time with a club as well.

Around here, it would be a bleedin' miracle if they even let anyone have a Wiccan club, with or without funding.

You're probably right. It'd probably be the same way here.

When the shoe's on the other foot, you notice when it pinches.

Booko, I've felt the pinch you speak of.

I still feel that there's double standards with all school organizations. If a religious club can't have a members only type of club...why should a sports team be able to turn a prospective player down from joining the team? Clearly, I'm of the minority here in thinking that there's major differences between the two scenarios but I see many similarities.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

The problem isn't that the club itself is Christian, the problem is that they are exclusionary.

So is the Football team. You have to be a "Jock" to join that elite group. They restrict membership in the Gay rights club... why does it get privileges that other groups don't?

Everyone:
Now, don't get me wrong. I have no issues with the Football team or the Gay rights club, AS LONG AS ALL GROUPS GET THE SAME TREATMENT. Look at the verbiage in here: "Nasty little group", "Fascists" and I could go on. I get it: they are not your type. You abhor them and maybe even hate them. That's not "persecution", that's bigotry and bias. However, your bigotry and bias is not sufficient reason to deprive them of their rights as individuals or as a group. The idea of separation of Church and State was never meant to be used as a means to eliminate Churches by restricting how they raise funds. In fact, that is completely unconstitutional, not that this will abate the hate that I see in here.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Booko

Can you imagine a Luciferian Club being allowed to have any kind of club here in the South?

Ain't happenin'.

But happen it should. Why restrict the rights of others? We should fight for the rights of everyone.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

But it happens. All the time within other clubs and organizations. And it's overlooked.

How so?

Yet, in this case...with the Christian organization...it TRULY makes no sense whatsoever for someone to join who isn't a Christian who believes similarly.

You don't think someone might be genuinely interested in finding out more about the religion?

I'm frankly amazed that they would so restrict membership. It seems kind of silly to shut the door on the possibility of bringing in non-Christian friends who might be attracted to the faith.

That's what really boggles my mind. These girls are really not thinking things through.

You qualify to get in...just as you would to star in a play or make a sports team. And this is much smaller scale.

Lots of people joined the Ski Club in my HS who couldn't ski. They worked the fundraisers to go on the trip, where they learned how to ski.

EVERYONE should be allowed in EVERY club regardless and EVERYONE should be able to play any sport or any instrument...regardless of talent, interest or intent.

Er...that *is* the policy for clubs, generally.

Clubs and extracurricular activities, as it's been pointed out, ain't the same.

When it comes to school programs...how is being rejected based upon race, gender or religion so different from being rejected from a club or program based upon talent, interest or intent...

You can work to improve your abilities. You can't work to change your gender or race, and it's a bit much to ask people to change religions in order to join anything.

Uh...which is apparently what this club is demanding for membership.

I was in fact discriminated against BECAUSE of my weight...an attribute of myself...much like the color of my skin.

People can lose weight. They can't lose white.

Is it discrimination to not give someone a job if they don't have the qualifications for it? I don't know biology -- do you suppose a biotech company would hire me?

Discrimination is when someone tells you no for a reason that is irrelevant, and especially when it's something you have no power to change in any way.

It's not discriminatory to refuse to let someone on a sports team when they can't play the sport.

People make it into these clubs and organizations because they QUALIFY.

They....are....not.....clubs.

See what I'm saying??? Truly, where does the discrimination really lie here? Everyone has a double standard but it's not exploited when it comes to football or other clubs...

Football.....is....not.....a......club.

Allowed...in a technical sense...perhaps. But I could have been booted or rejected because I didn't QUALIFY by their standards.
What's the difference?

It.....was.....not.....a.......club.

Um, Dawny, would the folks who run RF be "discriminating" against you if you couldn't type and they didn't let you on because you couldn't fill in the registration?

Or is that just a reality of life?

Just because I can walk through the door and try out doesn't mean that I'm not going to be treated in a fair and equal way.

If in your tryout you can do things no other girl can and you're fantastic, but it's a mostly black school and they turn you down because you're white, then *that* is discrimination.

I think it's bs. And how equal and fair is it for a sports team to be so different from any other school club?

It.....is.....not......a......club.

Think about it for a minute. We're talking about equality and discrimination here.

No, we're not. Unless you advocate we all be treated equally that life looks like something out of "Harrison Bergeron."

I may have misread and I'm normally not one to scream "discrimination" but I don't believe that any other organization with rules and regs are being poked at.

The other clubs are abiding by the rules, from what it looks like.

Not true! We had clubs ONLY for the 10th grade and only for women in school. And if you weren't a woman or weren't in the 10th grade...you didn't qualify for that particular club...end of story.

Unusual, to say the least.

At our college, there was a group that tried to have a Homosexuality Club, but they only wanted to let in people who were gay. Well, I can understand the thought, because there's the possibility that some people would come in an disrupt meetings, possibly violently. They were not allowed to have the club on campus unless they opened the membership. They were told that if they had any difficulties, the school would deal with it, as disrupting meetings and ill-treatment was not tolerated. As it happens, no one got stupid.

Well, it was a very small school, and I think if anyone had gotten stupid, the person getting stupid might've come back from class one day and found all his possessions tossed out the window.

And you don't see at ALL how these girls are being discriminated AGAINST?

Personally, I think if they exclude students based on "creed," they're darned lucky to be allowed to use school grounds at all.

Now, if their membership were open, or there were other religious groups that were closed, then it *would* be discrimination.

And if there were other religious groups with open membership, and this group wanted open membership but were turned down, then again, that would be discrimination.

Discrimination is what happens when their isn't a level playing field for everyone.

I do have a problem with the idea that political party interest groups could limit membership. I think the school needs to rethink that one, <<tout suite>>.

They don't? Perhaps not a WRITTEN requirement but are there really NO requirements?

At the HS and college I went to there were no requirements to join any club, period.

That didn't apply at my high school.

Perhaps they need to revisit their policies as well. It's important to have a level playing field.

If the INTENT and PURPOSE of the club was to educate and discuss Christianity in general...then I would agree with you. But that isn't the intent and purpose of this club. The intent and purpose is for FELLOWSHIP with Christians of like beliefs.

If they want to have worship services, they need to use a church. Public schools are not built to provide worship facilities for ANY religion.

And I think that the girls were smart to creatue the pledges to make sure that people understood that this was the intent and purpose of the club.

At least they were up front about their intent.

What if students with ill intent wanted to join for no reason other than to make fun of or discriminate AGAINST the club? Have you ever thought about that?

Yes, and that's what why school clubs require a teacher for a sponsor. To prevent this sort of abuse. *If* there is a problem, then the adminstration has the power to tell disruptive students they have to leave. Being in a club is not a sacred right, it's a privelege that's dependent on behaving well.

I have a very strong HUNCH, being a Christian that these were some of the reasons for excluding those who weren't Christian from their club.

Like the Homosexual Club in college. They didn't know anyone would disrupt anything. They could've chosen another way, as the college club did. But they didn't, and because they don't want to abide by the rules, they get snarky? I think someone used the term "petulant"? It does kinda fit.

They weren't trying to educate the school...they were seeking like minded individuals to fellowship with.

Go to church.

And how on earth could funding of a small club like this even closely compare to that of sports organizations which DO discriminate against others, whether anyone wants to be honest or not?

Sports organizations......are.......not......clubs.

The kid who was too fat for cheerleading was discriminated against EVEN if they weren't TOLD that they were being rejected because they were fat. The kid who couldn't run fast was being discriminated against when they didn't make the sports team.

Sports teams........are.......not........clubs.

(Are you getting this yet??)

There's a double standard everywhere...it's just being ackowledged with this ONE club that is faith based. You may not see the discrimination here but I've been in their shoes far too many times in my life to NOT see what's going on here.

They were not willing to follow the rules.

Please don't tell me how many times you've been in their shoes, Dawny. At least not until you know what shoes I've been in on account of my religion.

Christians in this country have had their way for centuries, and now that they're being asked to be treated like *everyone else* it's suddenly discrimination?

That's just too rich.

But this club WAS/IS a religious club! There's no way on earth it's going to require the degree of funding that football would. And they weren't silent about their intent. Their intent was to function as a group of like minded individuals, fellowshipping together after school.

A football team......is......not......a.......club.

I repeat myself over and over, I know. So, if you've gotten this far...you deserve a truckload of frubals!

I think I'll give you some frubals for just having written so much!

[Booko]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

This goes BEYOND the separation of Church and state and well into the abolition of the Church by the state. Either EVERYONE has the same opportunities or no one does. That is fair.

How so, NetDoc?

Is the gov't telling these girls they can't have their club anywhere any time?

If a religious group wants special treatment over others, why should they have it? How is that "abolition"?

And is it abolition of the Church by the state for the state to say: No, you can't hold your worship services here, as they were paid for using gov't funds. Get a place of your own.

If I go down to my public library, which lets patrons use the facilities for free, and ask to have Baha'i devotional gatherings there, should I cry "discrimination" if they say no? Even more to the point, if the devotions are open only to Baha'is, should I cry "discrimination"?

That's what these girls are doing.

While I would much prefer to see schools have clubs with religious (and atheist) themes, if there cannot be fair treatment for all, then it would be better to just leave it alone, which will certainly provide fair treatment for all.

There is freedom of religion enshrined in our Consitution, but nowhere did it say that the taxpayers needed to buy the pulpit.

And then there's that little thing called the establishment clause...

[Booko]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

But happen it should. Why restrict the rights of others? We should fight for the rights of everyone.

In principle, I agree. But I'd like to see you come down here and fight for those rights, NetDoc.

Make sure your phone number is unlisted. Don't let anyone know where you live. And don't give out your real name.

There are people in this world who simply will not be persuaded of certain things, especially if it even appears to have anything to do with witchcraft.

If I fail to persuade them, what do you suggest? Guns?

Urm...no, I'd probably have a stroke from pure shock if you suggested that...

[dawny0826]

Then what exactly is the point of having a charter? If nobody other than Christians are going to join, then why do you have to say "we're not letting anyone else in"?

Think of it this way...most churches have charter type documents.

But, it doesn't work that way. Talent is a deterrent to being able to do something. We don't take people on a sports team or musical group if they have no talent for either, just like you wouldn't hire a ballet dancer to drywall your basement. That makes sense. However, it wouldn't be fair to not hire a contractor or send away an auditioner for a group or team because they were a certain religion, ethnicity or gender. That's the fundamental difference.

But this club was a religious based club. The purpose of the club was to discuss religion. It was about religion. And the people involved were seeking others of like religious thought within the school.

There's a big difference, and I'm very sad (but not surprised) that you don't see that.

Sorry to dissapoint.

It is the difference between saying "since you have absolutely no interest in the topic of the group, you probably won't want to be a member" and saying "we don't want you to join our club because you're a Jew".

I don't think this is the case at all. This isn't an issue of saying "we don't want you". It's more an issue of..."this is what THIS is". This is a club for people of like faith.

I have a feeling that if it was a Pagan, Jewish or Buddhist only club and the Christian student body was complaining, you'd be singing a different tune.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. You obviously have your mind made up about me (without even knowing me). To each his/her own, I guess.

I wouldn't have a problem at all with a Pagan, Jewish, Buddhist...whatever club. And I personally wouldn't be offended if a club organized in my school was for like faith only. I don't make a point to discriminate against other people. I believe in loving and respecting my neighbor, regardless of creed. And I live in an area where I went to school with people of so many different races and religions and I loved it.

Not being able to do a cartwheel is a good basis to reject someone for the danceline or cheerleading team. But, it's not a good reason to reject someone from the french club.

I'd say that not being able to speak any french would though. I don't think it unfeasible to decline a club member for not being qualified. I think a club should have that right, actually...just as the cheerleading squad obviously reserves the right to reject someone for their abilities.

Discrimination is "the treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit". So, if you HAD the talent for said sports team, and they rejected you for being overweight on soley an aesthetic basis ("we don't want fat cheerleaders"), then it would be discrimination. However, since you lacked the talent, then it isn't.

But what you're saying is that...sports teams reserve the right to reject you, am I right? If you don't qualify?

This is a religious club! It's not a club intended to educate others. It's designed for fellowship with other people of the school with similar beliefs...those are the qualifications. Further, just like football or cheerleading...it's elective. And in no way, shape or form requires the funding that other clubs do. Perhaps I'm daft...but I don't get it.

Would it be permissible to reject students of non-european decent from joining the french club?

No...but I believe it is permissible to reject a student (if necessary) from joining if they aren't currently taking French. I don't think it unfeasible to set guidelines and expect your members to meet certain critera....just like other school clubs and/or teams do.

If you have no interest in a group, then there is no reason to join. And, there's no reason to let you stay if you contribute nothing. I might join a club I'm not really interested in to learn about the subject in question. I'd still be participating. However, you'd still have the opportunity to join. The group in question only wants to allow certain people, whether or not someone who doesn't meet thier standards has something to contribute.

And they're clear about what their intent and purpose is. If the club is open to everyone...and a group who joins doesn't give a rat's rear about Christ or the Bible or desires education that the members didn't intend to give...the original club members are being deterred from their purpose for having the club in the first place.

Again...just like the football team would be at a disadvantage if they allowed players on the team who couldn't run, couldn't tackle or couldn't throw the ball join the team.

Ok, so tell me what the qaulifications for joining the spanish club are, and how you would go about determining who fit into those standards. Only people who take spanish?

I don't think it unfeasible or unreasonable to set guidelines. When I was in school, I had to follow the rules and regs of certain clubs. In fact, certain clubs were only available to upper or lower classmen...girls or guys...class officers.

I couldn't join every club within the school. I didn't qualify. This is probably why I'm having a hard time understanding why people make this club's criteria into something personal. It's a religous club...designed for fellowship...not education...just fellowship.

What about the others who want to learn another language in thier spare time, or speak it at home so they have to take another language?

What about the kids who really wanted to play football? Or run track? Or get the lead in the school play?

And, if interest is the only qualification for these types of clubs, why does a Christian club get to have higher standards? Can't a non-Christian be interested in Christianity?

Why are sports teams not scrutinized for placing qualified students on their teams? The same principles apply here.

Well, you may be willing to settle for not being treated equally, but I think you'll find most others aren't.

I'm all for EQUAL treatment which is why I agree whole heartedly with NetDoc. You either give all clubs the same rights and priviliges or you have no clubs or organizations.

If sports teams and certain clubs can bring on students who meet specific requirements, then so should the Christian club.

Yes, exactly. We're talking about what right a student run organization working under federal policy (since public schools are run by the federal government) to throw out the non-discrimination rules and then expect thier handout.

Their handout? How much money does it cost to "run" a Christian club compared to another school group or club?

Yes, it gets into a sticky area because the federal discrimination policy only extends to race, gender, sexuality and religion. Sure, had they wanted a club with only redheads it wouldn't have been a federal problem. Whether or not you think it's a double standard, the rules are pretty easy to understand. If you choose not to follow them, who's fault is that?

It's a religious club! It's not the drama club saying..."oh, you have to be Jewish to come on board". This is a CHRISTIAN club seeking Christian members. Where is the discrimination?

People who don't give a rat's rear about the club are the one's yelling discirmination here!

Any other organization? Or only high school clubs?

I was under the impression that we were discussing high school, here.

Nope, not one single bit. Personally I think thier reason for making such a big deal is wanting thier 15 minutes of fame, coupled with the common belief that the rest of the world is "out to get" Christianity. That makes you see persecution where there isn't any.

That goes both ways. I doubt that this groups intent was to discriminate against anyone. I think they wanted to have a club where they could discuss their religion and fellowship with people of like faith. Do I think that school is the best place to do this? You have to meet certain qualifications to join. It's a Christian based goup. Why is it so hard for people to swallow the fact that they want Christian members?

Clubs require participation to maintain membership. Beyond that, I don't see why there should be any other requirement.

Then everyone should be able to join every club and every team...without limitation. THAT would only be fair, then.

Sure, and students who wanted to join only to harass the people in the club should be dealt with accordingly. Having an open membership doesn't mean that students are allowed to harass one another.

I don't really see the purpose of an open membership when the purpose of the club is for Christians to meet and fellowship.

Just like the officer's clubs were for officers only. Just like sports meetings are for team members only.

It's still religious discrimination if you say "you can't join our Christian club because I don't think that Catholics are Christian".

That's not what has been said.

[Scuba Pete]

How is a football team NOT a club? They even refer to themselves as a "Ball club".

Originally Posted by booko

In principle, I agree. But I'd like to see you come down here and fight for those rights, NetDoc.

Back in 7th grade I was the ONLY white kid in my school (Carver Jr High) here in Orlando Florida. In 8th grade, I was the sole plaintiff against a church who felt it OK to hand out Bibles during school. The case was handled and won by the ACLU.

So there you have it. I am NOT afraid to stand up for my rights and the rights of others and I have the scars to prove it. It's not my fault that so many are so spineless that they refuse to speak out for the rights of others. It's also not my fault that so many are so clueless that they can't see their own hatred and bigotry.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

That's not what has been said.

But, that's part of what I am saying. You don't have to believe that the bible has to be taken literally or believe it's 100% infallible to be a Christian. Is it not discriminatory to keep those Christians out of the Christian club over a point of doctrine? It's like saying that you're going to make a club for Christians to followship, but you can't join unless you believe in pre-trib rapture. The charter makes the club not just for Christians, but a very very specific type of Christian.

And, I apologize for not addressing all your points, however I have to be at the airport at 6am tomorrow and...well....I haven't finished packing yet
Hopefully I'll be able to pick back up when I come home. =)