Kent school Bible club dispute becomes a federal case (beliefs, homosexuality)

[dawny0826]

However, in a public school you cannot tell a student that they are not allowed to join a club for any reason. Yes, someone who is not Christian probably wouldn't want to join the club in the first place, so what exactly is the point of so rigidly restricting membership?

But it happens. All the time within other clubs and organizations. And it's overlooked.

Yet, in this case...with the Christian organization...it TRULY makes no sense whatsoever for someone to join who isn't a Christian who believes similarly. Just like you wouldn't make the football team if you absolutely sucked and they didn't have any openings for managers.

It is the same principle. Qualifications. You qualify to get in...just as you would to star in a play or make a sports team. And this is much smaller scale.

If political correctness and equality is TRULY the concern here...then EVERYONE should be allowed in EVERY club regardless and EVERYONE should be able to play any sport or any instrument...regardless of talent, interest or intent.

When it comes to school programs...how is being rejected based upon race, gender or religion so different from being rejected from a club or program based upon talent, interest or intent...if in ALL CASES...the individual is made to feel like less of a person?

I'm not claiming that the latter three even compare to race, gender and religion in the grand scheme of things but seriously...if I don't make a cheerleading squad because I'm overweight...does it matter if I'm told that that's the reason that I've been rejected?

I don't meet their qualifications but the resulting feeling of dissapointment and inadequacy is surely comparable to the feeling of being persecuted or discriminated against because in a way...I was in fact discriminated against BECAUSE of my weight...an attribute of myself...much like the color of my skin.

(For the record, I didn't try out for cheerleading.... )

People make it into these clubs and organizations because they QUALIFY. What about the kids who didn't qualify? Who cares!! Nothing is said. And these types of clubs are still funded.

See what I'm saying??? Truly, where does the discrimination really lie here? Everyone has a double standard but it's not exploited when it comes to football or other clubs...even though on many levels, they too discriminate.

But, had you wanted to for whatever reason, you would have been allowed to.

Allowed...in a technical sense...perhaps. But I could have been booted or rejected because I didn't QUALIFY by their standards.

What's the difference?

Because, public schools are not allowed to discriminate and this rule also extends to student run clubs. They wouldn't have told you that you're not allowed to join the spanish club because you took french, or because you were white.

No, but they certainly could reject me from the cheerleading team or band or perhaps I didn't qualify for the National Honor Society. QUALIFICATIONS. You can tell me that the doors are open to me as much as you'd like but it's a farse. You have to qualify.

Just because I can walk through the door and try out doesn't mean that I'm not going to be treated in a fair and equal way.

A sport team is very different than an after school club.

I think it's bs. And how equal and fair is it for a sports team to be so different from any other school club?

Think about it for a minute. We're talking about equality and discrimination here.

Not really, no.

It really is. The same double standards...only it's exploited when you're dealing with a religious based organization.

I'm not seeing where this religious discrimination against Christianity is.

I may have misread and I'm normally not one to scream "discrimination" but I don't believe that any other organization with rules and regs are being poked at.

If the girls wanted to make a club only for women, or only for people in the 10th grade, or only for blondes, they would have the same problem.

Not true! We had clubs ONLY for the 10th grade and only for women in school. And if you weren't a woman or weren't in the 10th grade...you didn't qualify for that particular club...end of story.

Christianity is not the issue at all, the issue is the discriminatory operating nature of the club.

And you don't see at ALL how these girls are being discriminated AGAINST?

Like I said, some people just love to cry perseuction at every opportunity. These girls are no different.

Persecution sucks and it comes in many ugly shapes and forms and in terms of persuction is too often overlooked. And that's not one sided.

None of those clubs require that you have an interest to join.

They don't? Perhaps not a WRITTEN requirement but are there really NO requirements?

It would be stupid to join if you didn't, but they don't keep you from joining for any reason.

That didn't apply at my high school.

If there is even one student who has an interest in discussing the Bible and Christianity and is not a Christian, then it is unfair to even just that one person.

If the INTENT and PURPOSE of the club was to educate and discuss Christianity in general...then I would agree with you. But that isn't the intent and purpose of this club. The intent and purpose is for FELLOWSHIP with Christians of like beliefs.

And I think that the girls were smart to creatue the pledges to make sure that people understood that this was the intent and purpose of the club.

What if students with ill intent wanted to join for no reason other than to make fun of or discriminate AGAINST the club? Have you ever thought about that?

I have a very strong HUNCH, being a Christian that these were some of the reasons for excluding those who weren't Christian from their club.

They weren't trying to educate the school...they were seeking like minded individuals to fellowship with.

And how on earth could funding of a small club like this even closely compare to that of sports organizations which DO discriminate against others, whether anyone wants to be honest or not?

Whether or not you like it, public schools follow government policy. And government policy is one of non-discrimination. This club is discriminatory in nature, so it doesn't get school funds. If they wanted school funds, all they had to do was set up a club with the undersanding that most people who aren't Christian wouldn't have wanted to join anyway and left it at that and there would have been no problem. By willingly going against school policy, they set themselves up to have a problem.

And my point is that ALL school clubs and organizations are discriminatory in some manner. The kid who was too fat for cheerleading was discriminated against EVEN if they weren't TOLD that they were being rejected because they were fat. The kid who couldn't run fast was being discriminated against when they didn't make the sports team.

If I don't want you to join my club because you aren't a qualified member...and that's discriminatory...then it's every bit as much discriminatory for a student to be disqualified from a sports team because of their inability to meet a standard.

There's a double standard everywhere...it's just being ackowledged with this ONE club that is faith based. You may not see the discrimination here but I've been in their shoes far too many times in my life to NOT see what's going on here.

And if certain clubs require that you meet certain specifications which certain clubs and organizations DO...I think it's bs that this club can't be Christian-only.

Sports teams have different policies for acceptance and for getting school funding.

I know. And they won't view their actions as being discriminatory but many feel otherwise.

First of all, sports teams need more money by thier very nature, they are not student run, and you actually have to be able to play to be on the team. This is different from the after school "let's just sit an talk about this" club for several reasons.
However, sports teams and after school clubs are both not permitted to deny someone membership because of thier ethnicity, gender, sexuality or religion.

But this club WAS/IS a religious club! There's no way on earth it's going to require the degree of funding that football would. And they weren't silent about their intent. Their intent was to function as a group of like minded individuals, fellowshipping together after school.

I too think the common sense approach would be to meet at a church but still...they're being accused of being discriminatory when this IS a religious club.

As other clubs require...you must meet certain specifications...ONLY in this case...their specifications are being exploited.

I repeat myself over and over, I know. So, if you've gotten this far...you deserve a truckload of frubals!

[retrorich]

Dang! That was one long-tailed quote post. How long did it take you? When I see a post that long, I skip right to the next one.

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

And you don't see at ALL how these girls are being discriminated AGAINST?

Nope, because they are not being discriminated against.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

It is the same principle. Qualifications. You qualify to get in...just as you would to star in a play or make a sports team. And this is much smaller scale.

Then what exactly is the point of having a charter? If nobody other than Christians are going to join, then why do you have to say "we're not letting anyone else in"?

If political correctness and equality is TRULY the concern here...then EVERYONE should be allowed in EVERY club regardless and EVERYONE should be able to play any sport or any instrument...regardless of talent, interest or intent.

But, it doesn't work that way. Talent is a deterrent to being able to do something. We don't take people on a sports team or musical group if they have no talent for either, just like you wouldn't hire a ballet dancer to drywall your basement. That makes sense. However, it wouldn't be fair to not hire a contractor or send away an auditioner for a group or team because they were a certain religion, ethnicity or gender. That's the fundamental difference.

When it comes to school programs...how is being rejected based upon race, gender or religion so different from being rejected from a club or program based upon talent, interest or intent...if in ALL CASES...the individual is made to feel like less of a person?

There's a big difference, and I'm very sad (but not surprised) that you don't see that. It is the difference between saying "since you have absolutely no interest in the topic of the group, you probably won't want to be a member" and saying "we don't want you to join our club because you're a Jew".
I have a feeling that if it was a Pagan, Jewish or Buddhist only club and the Christian student body was complaining, you'd be singing a different tune.

I'm not claiming that the latter three even compare to race, gender and religion in the grand scheme of things but seriously...if I don't make a cheerleading squad because I'm overweight...does it matter if I'm told that that's the reason that I've been rejected?

Not being able to do a cartwheel is a good basis to reject someone for the danceline or cheerleading team. But, it's not a good reason to reject someone from the french club.

I don't meet their qualifications but the resulting feeling of dissapointment and inadequacy is surely comparable to the feeling of being persecuted or discriminated against because in a way...I was in fact discriminated against BECAUSE of my weight...an attribute of myself...much like the color of my skin.

Discrimination is "the treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit". So, if you HAD the talent for said sports team, and they rejected you for being overweight on soley an aesthetic basis ("we don't want fat cheerleaders"), then it would be discrimination. However, since you lacked the talent, then it isn't.

[quote]People make it into these clubs and organizations because they QUALIFY. What about the kids who didn't qualify? Who cares!! Nothing is said. And these types of clubs are still funded.[/qote]

Would it be permissible to reject students of non-european decent from joining the french club?

See what I'm saying???

Yes, I see exactly what you're saying. However, I don't think it's right at all, and I think you're missing the point.

Allowed...in a technical sense...perhaps. But I could have been booted or rejected because I didn't QUALIFY by their standards.

If you have no interest in a group, then there is no reason to join. And, there's no reason to let you stay if you contribute nothing. I might join a club I'm not really interested in to learn about the subject in question. I'd still be participating. However, you'd still have the opportunity to join. The group in question only wants to allow certain people, whether or not someone who doesn't meet thier standards has something to contribute.

No, but they certainly could reject me from the cheerleading team or band or perhaps I didn't qualify for the National Honor Society. QUALIFICATIONS. You can tell me that the doors are open to me as much as you'd like but it's a farse. You have to qualify.

Ok, so tell me what the qaulifications for joining the spanish club are, and how you would go about determining who fit into those standards. Only people who take spanish? What about the others who want to learn another language in thier spare time, or speak it at home so they have to take another language?
And, if interest is the only qualification for these types of clubs, why does a Christian club get to have higher standards? Can't a non-Christian be interested in Christianity?

Just because I can walk through the door and try out doesn't mean that I'm not going to be treated in a fair and equal way.

Well, you may be willing to settle for not being treated equally, but I think you'll find most others aren't.

I think it's bs. And how equal and fair is it for a sports team to be so different from any other school club?

How fair and equal is it to a dancer that I won't hire her to fix my dishwasher?

Think about it for a minute. We're talking about equality and discrimination here.

Yes, exactly. We're talking about what right a student run organization working under federal policy (since public schools are run by the federal government) to throw out the non-discrimination rules and then expect thier handout.

It really is. The same double standards...only it's exploited when you're dealing with a religious based organization.

Yes, it gets into a sticky area because the federal discrimination policy only extends to race, gender, sexuality and religion. Sure, had they wanted a club with only redheads it wouldn't have been a federal problem. Whether or not you think it's a double standard, the rules are pretty easy to understand. If you choose not to follow them, who's fault is that?

I may have misread and I'm normally not one to scream "discrimination" but I don't believe that any other organization with rules and regs are being poked at.

Any other organization? Or only high school clubs?

And you don't see at ALL how these girls are being discriminated AGAINST?

Nope, not one single bit. Personally I think thier reason for making such a big deal is wanting thier 15 minutes of fame, coupled with the common belief that the rest of the world is "out to get" Christianity. That makes you see persecution where there isn't any.

They don't? Perhaps not a WRITTEN requirement but are there really NO requirements?

Clubs require participation to maintain membership. Beyond that, I don't see why there should be any other requirement.

That didn't apply at my high school.

Would they have let the spanish club throw out non-hispanic members?

If the INTENT and PURPOSE of the club was to educate and discuss Christianity in general...then I would agree with you. But that isn't the intent and purpose of this club. The intent and purpose is for FELLOWSHIP with Christians of like beliefs.

Fine, and they can have that. But if they want to have a Christian fellowship pizza party, then they can pay for the provisions themselves.

What if students with ill intent wanted to join for no reason other than to make fun of or discriminate AGAINST the club? Have you ever thought about that?

Sure, and students who wanted to join only to harass the people in the club should be dealt with accordingly. Having an open membership doesn't mean that students are allowed to harass one another.

I have a very strong HUNCH, being a Christian that these were some of the reasons for excluding those who weren't Christian from their club.
They weren't trying to educate the school...they were seeking like minded individuals to fellowship with.

What about the Christians in the school who wanted to be a part of thie "fellowship" club, but weren't as rigid in thier beliefs on certain things? Why should they not be allowed to join? It's still religious discrimination if you say "you can't join our Christian club because I don't think that Catholics are Christian".

And how on earth could funding of a small club like this even closely compare to that of sports organizations which DO discriminate against others, whether anyone wants to be honest or not?

Sports teams inherently require more money. After school clubs don't need uniforms, equiptment and transportation. However, sports teams don't discriminate in te same way we're talking about here. They are discriminating in that they want people with the most talent, however they don't (or are not permitted to) reject talented members because they're Mexican or Jewish. That would be discrimination.

And my point is that ALL school clubs and organizations are discriminatory in some manner. The kid who was too fat for cheerleading was discriminated against EVEN if they weren't TOLD that they were being rejected because they were fat. The kid who couldn't run fast was being discriminated against when they didn't make the sports team.

See above. You're using discrimination far too loosely.

If I don't want you to join my club because you aren't a qualified member...and that's discriminatory...then it's every bit as much discriminatory for a student to be disqualified from a sports team because of their inability to meet a standard.

Fine, but what if you reject me because I'm white?

[MaddLlama]

Continued, since it was too long for one message

And if certain clubs require that you meet certain specifications which certain clubs and organizations DO...I think it's bs that this club can't be Christian-only.

And, a very specific type of Christian. What about all the other Christians out there who aren't into the legalistic version of Christianity? Should they be discriminated against?

I know. And they won't view their actions as being discriminatory but many feel otherwise.

And, fi you think rejecting a student from the football team for not being a good football player is the same as rejecting them for being Mexican, then you'd be wrong (which is essentially what you're saying). Very very wrong.

I too think the common sense approach would be to meet at a church but still...they're being accused of being discriminatory when this IS a religious club.

Like I said before, you can be a Christian without believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible. What about those Christians who would be rejected from this club? They're not being discriminated against?

As other clubs require...you must meet certain specifications...ONLY in this case...their specifications are being exploited.

Are these two girls in a position to judge who is and who isn't a Christian based on how they interpret the Bible? Is it right to have a "mormons only" Christian club? If it was just a Christian club even just for Christian only members I don't think I would care, but the fact is that thier standards are set so high that they will inevitably reject other Christians who just don't agree with them on a point of doctrine.

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Are these two girls in a position to judge who is and who isn't a Christian based on how they interpret the Bible? Is it right to have a "mormons only" Christian club? If it was just a Christian club even just for Christian only members I don't think I would care, but the fact is that thier standards are set so high that they will inevitably reject other Christians who just don't agree with them on a point of doctrine.

Mormons get around it by having their high-school aged kids meet at 6:00am off school grounds. Works much better that way

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

Mormons get around it by having their high-school aged kids meet at 6:00am off school grounds. Works much better that way

And anyone that wants to can come

[retrorich]

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

And anyone that wants to can come

I'll get in line early, to make sure I get a good seat.

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by retrorich

I'll get in line early, to make sure I get a good seat.

Contact your local LDS congregation for details on when and where

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by retrorich

Dang! That was one long-tailed quote post. How long did it take you? When I see a post that long, I skip right to the next one.

Can't say I blame you and it was my post.