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  #81  
Old 01-21-2013, 12:54 PM
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I think I understand you better now, and it looks like we have similar views. I see God as impersonal, yet as the container of all things that is, all knowledge, all powers and energies, etc. I'm still struggling with how to express the thoughts and views I have, so I'm sorry if that somehow upset you.

My problem is all the attempts of actually trying to prove God in any way, because each time, it's nothing but proving that God has socks or wear a hat on Sundays. Arguments for God tend to be reductive (scientific) in their attempts and that reduces God to an "it". We are not just "it"-s. We consider ourselves to be someone-s, he, she, we, etc. But we have emerged from this "it". So the total "it" is more than just an "it". This "it" is also me, you, he, she, we, them, this, that...

So again, I consider proofs of God being ultimately destructive of understanding God and ourselves.

But I promised to get out of this thread, so I'll do my best to shut up now.

---edit

Just one more thing. Proving God is like proving that a pudding tastes good by researching its chemical compounds and physical attributes, when it's really about how someone will experience the pudding to be good or not. Is it good? The proof is in the pudding.

Last edited by Ouroboros; 01-21-2013 at 12:56 PM..
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  #82  
Old 01-21-2013, 01:11 PM
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It's okay, I understand. I was curious about that too because your profile says Panentheist, hahaha. And i'm sorry too for becoming frustrated. We both need to find better ways of expressing ourselves I suppose.

God probably can't be proven, I concur. Not through science, but I do believe that those great men who contemplated and meditated on this same subject ages ago did indeed touch this source in their own small way.

I believe it is also in this quest for God that their are extremes, two sides which are the opposite of each other. There are the Atheists and the Fundamentalist Religious. Both are wrong.

Atheism itself is a lie and breeds materialism, and carelessness for the treatment of all that is. People like Richard Dawkins and such are great in contributing to the attack on nonsense, but they are also contributing to the attack on the morality in us, to our selfish way of seeing each other and the universe. We need to see that we are the dream of a God, and it's our duty as sentient beings to make it the most beautiful dream that can possibly be.

Last edited by Siddhartha Plotinus; 01-21-2013 at 01:16 PM..
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  #83  
Old 01-21-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siddhartha Plotinus View Post

God probably can't be proven, I concur. Not through science, but I do believe that those great men who contemplated and meditated on this same subject ages ago did indeed touch this source in their own small way.
YES. That I believe.

Best proof of what pain is, is to feel pain, not to explain how the nerves send a pain response to the brain. (Not saying God is a pain... except when he's talking through an *** )

Quote:
I believe it is also in this quest for God that their are extremes, two sides which are the opposite of each other. There are the Atheists and the Fundamentalist Religious. Both are wrong.
Now we found each other! I'm glad again.

Quote:
Atheism itself is a lie and breeds materialism, and carelessness for the treatment of all that is. People like Richard Dawkins and such are great in contributing to the attack on nonsense, but they are also contributing to the attack on the morality in us, to our selfish way of seeing each other and the universe.
I wouldn't call atheism a lie. Not anymore than theism is a lie. It's just a fixation (in both cases) on a very specific definition of what/who God is, and it either takes faith, or it denies a definition.

Science is about proving the absolutes, the "it" of the world.

Religion is about expressing our experience of the world and create a framework that can help us live here and connect. It's more about "we" than "it".

So when religion becomes a task of finding "it", it's becomes a science and search for an absolute "being", and will result in people failing.

Quote:
We need to see that we are the dream of a God, and it's our duty as sentient beings to make it the most beautiful dream that can possibly be.
Amen.
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  #84  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouOnlyScienceOnce View Post
Best evidence for a god. The best philosophical/scientific argument for a god.
Israel becomes a nation in 1948. Here are the calculations I have made on another forum a year or so ago. The information is based on several websites I referenced along the way. I can't take credit, nor can I remember for sure where I got the pieces to put this together. By far, this is some of the best evidence for God possible. As the Hebrew tradition says, "God draws the future into the past for us to see twice."

What is evidence? We base our world around axioms of evident truth. When paradox is seen, we simply need to find a higher axiom. For instance, if a train engineer and friend argue that the whistle of the train changes pitch, who is correct? The friend hears the train go by each day and hears a change. The engineer rides the train each day and hears no change. Both disagree that the whistle changes pitch. In the end, they are both correct. The Doppler effect unifies the lower paradox. I believe this to be the central reason God drags the future into the past for us to see. Such an exceedingly high axiom contradicts any of our paradox below. There is no explanation apart from divine knowledge.

Although some prophecy is vague, this one is crystal clear. Of course, it is hidden in a mystery. Mysteries are meant to be solved.

Isaiah 11:11

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here is God's judgment predicted ahead for us to clearly read.

The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)

390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel

Fulfillment

430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel

Where are the 360 years?

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21)

"And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

"I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)

This is a factor of 7 (7X)

360 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor
= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel

360 day years for prophecies, then add the appropriate 'leap months' to the schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...

2,520 years
x 360 days
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity

907,200 days 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained

Now have another look.

606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity
- 70 Years for 70 years
= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment
+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.
= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel
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  #85  
Old 04-10-2013, 04:16 PM
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God gave us free will. That gives us the chance to be the best we can be or not.
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  #86  
Old 04-10-2013, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelectThis! View Post
Israel becomes a nation in 1948. Here are the calculations I have made on another forum a year or so ago. The information is based on several websites I referenced along the way. I can't take credit, nor can I remember for sure where I got the pieces to put this together. By far, this is some of the best evidence for God possible. As the Hebrew tradition says, "God draws the future into the past for us to see twice."

What is evidence? We base our world around axioms of evident truth. When paradox is seen, we simply need to find a higher axiom. For instance, if a train engineer and friend argue that the whistle of the train changes pitch, who is correct? The friend hears the train go by each day and hears a change. The engineer rides the train each day and hears no change. Both disagree that the whistle changes pitch. In the end, they are both correct. The Doppler effect unifies the lower paradox. I believe this to be the central reason God drags the future into the past for us to see. Such an exceedingly high axiom contradicts any of our paradox below. There is no explanation apart from divine knowledge.

Although some prophecy is vague, this one is crystal clear. Of course, it is hidden in a mystery. Mysteries are meant to be solved.

Isaiah 11:11

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here is God's judgment predicted ahead for us to clearly read.

The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)

390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel

Fulfillment

430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel

Where are the 360 years?

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21)

"And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

"I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)

This is a factor of 7 (7X)

360 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor
= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel

360 day years for prophecies, then add the appropriate 'leap months' to the schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...

2,520 years
x 360 days
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity

907,200 days 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained

Now have another look.

606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity
- 70 Years for 70 years
= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment
+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.
= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel
Numerology only impresses those who are already inclined to believe what the numerology is being used to evidence.
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  #87  
Old 04-10-2013, 08:06 PM
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In my personal opinion, the fact that life itself exists is proof of some kind of higher, mysterious life-giving spirit. You may call it "God" but I prefer "Universal Mind". See, if you look anywhere outside of our planet, all you find is lifeless matter floating around out there. Or rather, lifeless compared to our standard of what life is. So, based on everything else that we know does exist in the universe outside of Earth, why aren't we just lifeless matter? It seems as though that is all that should exist, and in a sense that is true, since matter IS all that exists. But then when you consider that our bodies and brains are made up of material stuff, yet something as immaterial as love, or for that matter the experience of any emotion or any thought, could come from that regular material stuff (protons, neutrons, and electrons), it makes you begin to question "why?". Wouldn't matter have been just as content to remain simple matter? Did it will itself to be something more? How did it ascend from a hydrogen atom, seeming to have none of what we consider to be "life", to being something as complex as the human mind, which is able to release and give form to all the energy within that said hydrogen atom? What is the difference between a simple atom that has no perception other than positive or negative, and a human brain, which gives us the ability to perceive complex thoughts and emotions, while still only being made of the same basic subatomic particles that exist in all other lifeless matter? It seems to me that the "divine breath" of God is that difference. In short, the fact that we can perceive that which cannot perceive itself THROUGH that which cannot perceive itself, which seems to be totally illogical and impossible, proves that we have been and still are in direct contact with the creator of all creation, through mind. And that said creator of all creation is mind. It is the universal mind called Yahveh, Jehovah, or what have you, and it is what gives us the ability to experience "life" through that which seemingly cannot experience. All of the raw power of the atom, which is only a massive explosion when released on the material level, is what we have harnessed within our own minds. Life, love, joy and fear and hate and all of that, this is what the protons, neutrons, and electrons are capable of. But only through that which has come into direct contact with the Divine Will of the universe are any of those complex thoughts and emotions possible. It is the best, most convincing way I know to explain it, and it is in this way that I understand it.
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  #88  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:48 AM
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"Solar eclipses. A moon that's 400 times smaller than a star that's exactly 400 times further away, that's too coincidental."

Wow this is a pretty cool bit of science trivia.
From BrokenHearted2
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  #89  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:01 AM
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Hahahah! yes "I post therefore I am"
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  #90  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:07 AM
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"For example, as I mentioned above, everything must be traced back to the very first of firsts. Now it would be irrational to believe that existence (matter, anti-matter, energy, etc) never had a beginning, and this beginning would be God, or if it makes you feel better, the Source. Now this Source would need to be eternal and infinite in the power of production in order for it to be the first of firsts, because otherwise we would have to keep tracing back through the chain of cause and effect to find the true Source."

I love this idea sir.
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