Christianity and Paganism -- Compatible?

[Kcnorwood]

[quote=Dunemeister;1242154]First of all, "convert or die" wasn't an option for several centuries, at least not for the pagans. For the pagans had all the power until roughly the time of Constantine. And even then, it wasn't as though Christian troubles were over. Certainly during the time of the development of the catholic tradition (say, pre 600), Christians were not threatening pagans with death if they failed to convert.


Load of rubbish the Roman Catholic chruch did excatly that & thats excatly what Ceaser did agains the Celtics.



Second, use of the pentagram to represent the five books of Moses doesn't prove that there was some sort of pagan origin to Christianity. It may mean that the church was doing what it always did -- subverting pagan symbols. By associating the pentagram with their own heritage, the church would have been changing the very meaning of the symbol. Take the cross, for example. It was the symbol of the ultimate in pagan authority and terror. But Christians turned that symbol of death into a symbol of life-giving love.



The chruch used it because they believe that it held power while at the same time used it. The pentgram that is.


Yes, the Sumerian myth is similar to what we find in Genesis. Note that that's in the Old Testament and constitutes part of the church's Jewish heritage. How do we account for the similarity? Did the Jews merely borrow from Sumer? Or did the Sumerians borrow from ancient Hebrews? Or did both groups share a common Semitic culture that made use of similar symbols and archetypes but invest them with different meaning? Or was the Genesis story intended as a reaction against Sumerian paganism, perhaps borrowing language and imagery, but investing them with different theological content so as to subvert the Sumerian story?
quote]



How would the Hewbrews borrow something from a people that was much older?


One theory according to Tom Harpur was that Horus was aslo known as the Krst. He was also called the good shepard ,the lamb of God & son of God. Just for the record I do not believe that Jesus was a copy of any one Pagan God but a mixture of many different Gods. If you look at some of the Pagan Gods you can see that it would seem that the idea of Jesus was used before he came along.

Even Buddhism which is more or less a Pagan belief shows us that the teachings of Buddha had very striking paralles & Buddha was some 400 B.C.



Buddha: They agreed among themselves, friends, here comes the recluse, Gotama, who lives luxuriously, who gives up his striving and reverted to luxury.

Jesus: The son of humanity came eating and drinking and they said look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.


Buddha: With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.

Jesus: Those who want to save their life will loose it. Those who loose their live for my sake will save it.


Buddha: Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world.

Jesus: This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Just a small example.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Kcnorwood

Load of rubbish the Roman Catholic chruch did excatly that & thats excatly what Ceaser did agains the Celtics.

I don't deny that the church used violence to spread the faith. I deny that it happened in the first few centuries when the church was weak and unsupported by the government of the day. Caesar attacked the Celts centuries before Jesus, so that wasn't a Christian invasion. It was one pagan society attacking another.

The chruch used it because they believe that it held power while at the same time used it. The pentgram that is.

Can you prove that by appeal to Christian writings that expound upon the powers of the pentagram?

How would the Hewbrews borrow something from a people that was much older?

I assume you mean this in the reverse: How would the Sumerians borrow from the Hebrews since the Sumerian culture was older? That sort of begs the question. We know that the Sumerian culture was older, but we don't really have any way of determining which myth -- biblical or Sumerian -- is actually older. The biblical story may have been codified later, but it may well have been older than the Sumerian in the form of oral tradition. So it's possible that the Sumerians copied some part of ancient Hebrew oral tradition and developed their own creation story from it. Then, during later interactions, perhaps the Hebrews modified their story once again to subvert the pagan one. The point is that the historical record is too scant to make definite claims of temporal priority, especially when you consider the nomadic and oral tradition of the Jews.

One theory according to Tom Harpur was that Horus was aslo known as the Krst. He was also called the good shepard ,the lamb of God & son of God. Just for the record I do not believe that Jesus was a copy of any one Pagan God but a mixture of many different Gods. If you look at some of the Pagan Gods you can see that it would seem that the idea of Jesus was used before he came along.

Even Buddhism which is more or less a Pagan belief shows us that the teachings of Buddha had very striking paralles & Buddha was some 400 B.C.

Buddha: They agreed among themselves, friends, here comes the recluse, Gotama, who lives luxuriously, who gives up his striving and reverted to luxury.

Jesus: The son of humanity came eating and drinking and they said look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.

Buddha: With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.

Jesus: Those who want to save their life will loose it. Those who loose their live for my sake will save it.

Buddha: Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world.

Jesus: This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Just a small example.

The example can be as big as you like. I can both acknowledge all these claims -- that the church adapted extant titles of authority for use with Jesus, that Jesus' teaching finds echoes in other religions -- yet deny your conclusion that the church borrowed from them. Christianity always was (and is) an evangelistic religion. It seeks to convert those who are outside. Thus it's no surprise to see that Christians gave the title "kyrios" to Jesus. "Kyrios" means "lord", and it was routinely used by Roman emperors to denote their majesty. The Christians went around calling Jesus "kyrios" quite deliberately in order to say that Caesar isn't Lord -- Jesus is. Again, if Horus is popularly known as "the Good Shepherd", then it makes perfect sense to apply the title to Jesus (and infuse it with new meaning) if you're trying to say "Well, Horus may be called the Good Shepherd, but he's not -- here's the real deal." It should be noted, BTW, that the Christian shepherd imagery was borrowed from Judaism, not paganism.

So this isn't a case of borrowing but of subversion. For you'll find that pagans steadfastly resisted Christianity. They resisted because it was subverting their symbols, language, and way of life. If it was a mere copy, why the strong resistance? To date, nobody has even attempted to address that question.

[Kcnorwood]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

I don't deny that the church used violence to spread the faith. I deny that it happened in the first few centuries when the church was weak and unsupported by the government of the day. Caesar attacked the Celts centuries before Jesus, so that wasn't a Christian invasion. It was one pagan society attacking another.

Agreed.

Can you prove that by appeal to Christian writings that expound upon the powers of the pentagram?

I'm looking for it had to take our computer back to the start because of a virus, lost most of my links I had saved. However I've also read that the Pentgram was used by medevil Christians to represent the five wounds of Christ. The Pentgram was also used by other faiths as well. Gnostics, Freemasons, The Muslim faith. Even da Vinci used it to show geomertical relationship of man to the universe.

I assume you mean this in the reverse: How would the Sumerians borrow from the Hebrews since the Sumerian culture was older? That sort of begs the question. We know that the Sumerian culture was older, but we don't really have any way of determining which myth -- biblical or Sumerian -- is actually older. The biblical story may have been codified later, but it may well have been older than the Sumerian in the form of oral tradition. So it's possible that the Sumerians copied some part of ancient Hebrew oral tradition and developed their own creation story from it. Then, during later interactions, perhaps the Hebrews modified their story once again to subvert the pagan one. The point is that the historical record is too scant to make definite claims of temporal priority, especially when you consider the nomadic and oral tradition of the Jews.

Again I agree there sadly there is so most history lost that we have very little to go by.

The example can be as big as you like. I can both acknowledge all these claims -- that the church adapted extant titles of authority for use with Jesus, that Jesus' teaching finds echoes in other religions -- yet deny your conclusion that the church borrowed from them. Christianity always was (and is) an evangelistic religion. It seeks to convert those who are outside. Thus it's no surprise to see that Christians gave the title "kyrios" to Jesus. "Kyrios" means "lord", and it was routinely used by Roman emperors to denote their majesty. The Christians went around calling Jesus "kyrios" quite deliberately in order to say that Caesar isn't Lord -- Jesus is. Again, if Horus is popularly known as "the Good Shepherd", then it makes perfect sense to apply the title to Jesus (and infuse it with new meaning) if you're trying to say "Well, Horus may be called the Good Shepherd, but he's not -- here's the real deal." It should be noted, BTW, that the Christian shepherd imagery was borrowed from Judaism, not paganism.


It does not matter if you believe that Horus was the good shepard or not, the point is that he was once called the Good Shepard. Egyptians were Pagans & Horus was a Pagan God.

So this isn't a case of borrowing but of subversion. For you'll find that pagans steadfastly resisted Christianity. They resisted because it was subverting their symbols, language, and way of life. If it was a mere copy, why the strong resistance? To date, nobody has even attempted to address that question.

You & I have been talking about two very different times historically. Like you said because so much is missing from history we do not know if they did or not. You could ask the same question of Pagans today. Because your God os not ours it's simple really.
About the Greeks as far as I know they didn't believe in recarnation once you died that was it but they still were Pagan. I'd suggest you read up on Apollonius of Tyana he was compared to Jesus at times, because they said he performed some of the same miracle's.

[Kcnorwood]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

my wife and I are going on ten years together and yes, at times it was "sticky"
(I will allow ya'll to make your own assumptions)

Ewwww I just caught that! I guess I can't say nothing myself my wife & I stuck too.....

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Kcnorwood

About the Greeks as far as I know they didn't believe in recarnation once you died that was it but they still were Pagan. I'd suggest you read up on Apollonius of Tyana he was compared to Jesus at times, because they said he performed some of the same miracle's.

Transmigration of souls was taught by the Epicureans. But as with Hinduism, the notion of returning to bodily existence was disgusting. The goal was to escape this migration and enter into disembodied bliss. Their perspective ruled out resurrection. The Epicurean idea was opposed by the Stoics, who held that we're basically worm food when we die.