Really can you eat meat? (Jesus Christ, rituals, Latter-Day Saints, moral)

[Druidus]

Oh, Linus?

Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble.

Daniel 1:11-16
Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

1. AND some of his disciples came and told him of a certain Egyptian, a son of Belial, who taught that it was lawful to torment animals, if their sufferings brought any profit to men.
2. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, they who partake of benefits which are gotten by wronging one of God's creatures, cannot be righteous: nor can they touch holy things, or teach the mysteries of the kingdom, whose hands are stained With blood, or whose mouths are defiled with flesh.
3. God giveth the grains and the fruits of the earth for food: and for righteous man truly there is no other lawful sustenance for the body.
4. The robber who breaketh into the house made by man is guilty, but they who break into the house made by God, even of the least of these are the greater sinners. Wherefore I say unto all who desire to be my disciples, keep your hands from bloodshed and let no flesh meat enter your mouths, for God is just and bountiful, who ordaineth that man shall live by the fruits and seeds of the earth alone.
5. But if any animal suffer greatly, and if its life be a misery unto it. or if it be dangerous to you, release it from its life quickly, and with as little pain as you can, Send it forth in love and mercy, but torment it not, and God the Father-Mother will shew mercy unto you, as ye have shown mercy unto those given into your hands.
6. And whatsoever ye do unto the Cast of these my children, ye do it unto me. For I am in them and they are in me, Yea, I am in all creatures and all creatures are in me. In all their joys I rejoice, in all their afflictions I am afflicted. Wherefore I say unto you: Be ye kind one to another, and to all the creatures of God.
7. AND it came to pass the day after, that he came into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.
8. Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold there was a dead man carried out the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
9. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not, thy son sleepeth. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
10. And he that was esteemed dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. And there came an awe upon all: and they glorified God, saying, A great prophet is risen up among us; and God hath visited his people.

Gospel of the Holy Twelve; Lection 38

The gospel of the Holy Twelve is the earliest writings of the Christian Chruch, written during and just after Jesus' life. This was before it could be warped by men.

[Linus]

Druidus,

I appreciate your imput, but I am struggling to see your point. I agree that it is better to eat fruit and vegetables rather than meet. This is a scientific fact. But nowhere does the New Testament outright condemn the eating of meat. It does not command us to eat meat, but it does recognize the fact that we are allowed to do so.

Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble.

This verse indeed does not outright condemn the eating of meat. It only says that one must not eat it if it causes another christian to stuble in his or her faith. At least that is the way I read it.

Daniel 1:11-16
Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

Again I think your interpretation is a bit off. Daniel is not condemning the eating of meat. As I said above, I agree that meat (and who knows what kind of meat was included in the "royal food" of a non-jewish king) is not as good for you as vegetables are, but this is not a condemnation of meat eating. This merely shows some of the the advantages of vegetarianism.


And as for this passage from the Gospel of the Holy Twelve, seeing as how I have never heard of it before, I will have to investigate it further. But even so, I find it hard to believe that God would condemn the eating of ALL meats just for the sake of avoiding harming the animal.

Jesus ate fish, the Israelites ate quale during the wandering s in the wilderness, and John the baptist ate locust. I think it's a little ridiculous to say that God condemned the eating of all meats. You have to cause harm to an animal in order to eat it. After all, Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the LORD.

Hope this helps clarify my position

[fromthe heart]

Originally Posted by jewscout

since someone posted a similar question in an LDS-only thread i thought i'd open it up to everyone. Does your religion allow you to eat meat? Are there other dietary stipulations?

Just frubaled you for this post...I resoponded to the first post and was told 'just for LDS' I apologized which was removed from the same post because I guess I wasn't LDS...just wanted to say thanks!

[Druidus]

Here, Linus, is the text of the Gospel of the Holy Twelve. It contains mainly the life of Jesus, and not mainly his death, as in most of the bible.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm

Written in Aramaic, the text includes the complete life and teachings of Jesus. (Apparently)

"Fish" is another frequently mistranslated word in the Bible. Its reference is often not to the form of swimming life, but to the symbol by which early Christians could identify each other. It was a secret sign, needed in times of persecution, prior to official acceptance of Christianity as a state religion.

The sign of the fish was a mystical symbol and conversational password. Its name deriving from the Greek word for fish, "ichthus" Much later it was represented an acrostic, composed of leading letters of the Greek phrase, "Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter"-"Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour."

Frequent references to fish are intended as symbolic of The Christ and have nothing to do with the act of eating a dead fish. But the symbol of the fish did not meet with Roman approval. They preferred the sign of the cross, choosing to concentrate more on the death of Christ than on His brilliant life. Perhaps this is one reason only ten percent of His life record appears in the canonical scriptures. Most of His first thirty years has been omitted.

Jesus was a vegetarian
Now this is a touchy subject. Across the globe, there is a small handful of vegetarian Christians who assert that Jesus was a vegetarian. The bible, and other sources, seems to support this belief. Vegetarianism is not without precedent in the Christian, or even Catholic faiths: Many early church fathers were vegetarian, including St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Francis of Assisi.

Many Biblical scholars believe Jesus was a member of the Nazarene Essenes, a Jewish religious sect that followed a vegetarian diet and rejected animal sacrifices. This is possible when one looks at the Shroud of Turin, a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man, whom many believe to be Jesus. If Jesus was indeed a member of the Nazarene Essenes, he would also have taken the vow of a Nazarene, thus not cut his hair (Numbers 6:5). In the imprint found in the shroud of turin, there is a man with west-asian features (Nazareth is in west Asia), who has long hair, further supporting the claim Jesus was a member of the Nazarene Essenes.

Of course, there is no definite proof the Shroud of Turin is legitimate, so in order to prove Jesus was a Nazarene Essene, or a vegetarian, we need to look into the bible. Now Jesus was loved by some, and hated by others, and accused of blasphemy by the priests of his time. This was because he claimed to be the Jewish Messiah that was prophesized about in the TaNaKh (Jewish bible, or "old testament"). Lets take a look at the Old Testament description of the Messiah to come...
Note: For these scriptures, I will use the King James Translation, which I feel is more accurate.

Isaiah 7:14-15 (KJV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, so that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

First of all, it says God's sign of the Messiah will be a virgin giving birth to a son. Jesus was born of a virgin mother. It says his name shall be Immanuel, which means "God is with us". Jesus' real name was Yeshua, which means "God is salvation". The name "Immanuel" is meant to signify that this will be the Messiah, regardless of what his name is. At any rate, in verse 15, the pre-messianic prophesy of Jesus, it says he will eat butter and honey, so that he can know the difference between good and evil.

Now the question is, what does eating butter and honey have to do with knowing how to choose between good and evil. To answer this question, we must have an understanding of Jewish beliefs about dietary laws, and vegetarianism. Throughout history there has been many vegetarian jews. Even today, only India has more faith-based vegetarians than Israel. These vegetarian jews believed meat corrupted your soul. Eating meat was permitted by God, but so was drinking alcohol. Infact, just like alcohol, the bible teaches, meat makes you "stumble", or corrupts your heart. That is why Jesus, the Messiah, would eat butter and honey, instead of meat, so that his heart would not be corrupted. Before, during, and after Jesus' time Jews argued wether or not meat was good for people. Consider the 14th chapter of Romans...

Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble.

There were many vegetarian jews, so why not Jesus? Especially considering he was from Nazareth. Jesus is even called a Nazarene in Matthew 2:23. Want an example of another vegetarian Jew from the bible? How about the prophet Daniel.

The name Daniel means "God is my judge", showing how confident he was that his actions were righteous in the eyes of God. Well, Daniel also was a vegetarian. In the first chapter of the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon has imprisoned Daniel. In verse 8, Daniel refused to defile himself by eating the meat being served to him in the prison. Some have said that this is because the meat was offered to Babylonian gods, but this is incorrect, as vegetables were also offered in the name of these same Gods. Daniel abstained from the meat offered because he was a vegetarian. He knew the benefits of such a diet. Consider the following verses...

Daniel 1:11-16
Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

It's pretty clear Daniel was a vegetarian. So why not Jesus? The prophesy in Isaiah 7:15 said he would eat butter and honey (rather than meat) to be able to know the difference between good and evil. If Jesus ate meat, then he does not fit the Messianic prophesy of the Jews. Nowhere in the bible does it ever mention Jesus eating meat. In the King James translation, there are a few verses that mention Jesus eating meat, but in those cases, meat is translated from the Greek word "Broma" which literally means "food". All other translations of those same exact verses do not use the word "meat", rather they say Jesus sat down and ate "food".

Nowhere does it say Jesus ate meat. Now, knowing that the bible never mentions him eating meat, and taking into account the fact that Jesus taught love and kindness, how hard is it to assume he might have been a vegetarian? Also, Jesus was against animal sacrifice. He quoted Hosea 6:6, saying "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." He quoted Hosea in Matthew 9:13, and Matthew 12:6-7. He did this in a challenge to the Pharisees. Could this have been a hint into him being a vegetarian?

[Druidus]

What about Fish?

In the 14th chapter of Matthew (verses 13-21) Jesus takes his boat to a remote island. Thousands follow him there. Jesus tells his disciples to feed these people, but the tell him that they only have five loaves of bread and two fish (verse 17). Jesus gave thanks for the food, and it multiplied into enough to feed five thousand people. Now the question is, if Jesus was a vegetarian, why was he giving fish to his followers?

It should be noted that some scholars contend that the Greek word for "fish weed" (a dried seaweed) has been mistranslated in this story as "fish". It is certainly true that dried fishweed would be more likely in a basket with bread, and fishweed remains a popular food among Palestinian peasants like the people to whom Jesus was speaking. Also, in the beginning of the story (Matthew 14:13) it says Jesus got to this place by boat. These people were right by the sea. If they were out of fish, why not just go on a quick fishing expedition? Surely with 5,000 men present it would not be that hard to go fishing. With this in mind, it further supports the thought that fishweed was being used, not actual fish.

Also, when one considers that the disciples did not even think about trying to catch some fish, this helps explain Matthew 4:18-20, where Jesus gets his first disciples by telling some fishermen to give up their profession and follow him. Jesus even says to them "I will make you a fisher of men". Could this be Jesus was having them give up their barbaric line of work to do something more righteous? It may sound absurd, but it starts to make a little more sense when you take it in the same context as the story of feeding five thousand, where the disciples never even considered trying to catch some fish, despite being beside the sea. Why didn't they go fishing? Did Jesus teach it was wrong to eat fish?

Finally, there is the story of after the resurrection, in Luke 24:42-43, where Jesus eats some fish. This is an interesting story. Some scholars however, have stated that in this verse, the Greek word for fish is "ixous", which happens to be an acronym for the phrase "Jesus Christ Son of God Savior." Indeed, the fish is still a symbol of Christianity today. This argument could go on and on. I would not totally dismiss the concept of Jesus eating fish. Maybe it was possible. There are vegetarians who eat fish, they are called "pesco-vegetarians". Also, it should be noted that in the Catholic church you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays, but you are still allowed to eat fish. Could this be the result of Jesus' pesco-vegetarian life-style?

Five Characters.

[fromthe heart]

I eat meat...not a lot of it but I really like a good steak on the grill...I don't see any harm in eating meat if one choses to do so...anything in excess can be a sin so I don't overeat anything.


hugs jewscout

[pensive]

Originally Posted by Druidus

Oh, Linus?
Quote:

Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble.

Can we try to keep these things in context? After all, I could go up towards the beginning of that chapter and quote another phrase:

Romans 14:2
One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

In the end, to truly understand what is being said, you need to read the entire passage. According to most, to get the full context, you need to read Romans 14:1-21 as a single train of thought.

One of the unfortunate side effects of adding chapter and verse numbers to the Bible was that it began to encourage people to read things without regard for context.

[jewscout]

Having eaten a non-kosher diet most of my life and now being kosher i think the two things i miss the most are pepperoni pizzas and southern BBQ **drools**

[painted wolf]

yup, but the key is to respect the animals and plants that give you life. No respect and bad things happin. Disease for instance. Whole tribes life and culture revolved around the animals that they depended on for food, tools, cloths, shelter and other things. (too many to list here)

wa:do