Taoism and Confucianism (rituals, moral, Earth, paradise, mystic)

[lilithu]

Call this pet peeve number 356. (not really; who's keeping count? )

One of my pet peeves is certain Westerners who hate Christianity, unable to see anything redeeming in it, but love Buddhism. They insist that Christianity is full of supernatural references and in the same breath insist that Buddhism is free of all supernaturalism and completely rational, completely ignoring the Buddhists world-wide who believe that the Buddha could perform what we would call "miracles." It's mind-boggling to me that someone could refuse to set aside certain aspects of Christianity that one finds objectionable yet blithely do that very thing with Buddhism.

But that's not what this thread is about.

I've noticed that many of these same Westerners who love Buddhism and hate Christianity also love Taoism and hate Confucianism. They tell me that the two are nothing alike. Confucianism is all about social rules, and Taoism is all about nature. True... But what they're missing is the fact that both Confucianism and Taoism start with the basic premise of the Way. Both believe in an order to things that if followed is beneficial, and if transgressed is not. Both come from the Chinese ethos. The difference between Confucianism and Taoism is how they each respond to this shared belief. The former approaches from the exoteric, focusing on rules and rituals, regulating how we interact with each other. The latter focuses on the esoteric, the unteachable, inner transformation. Yes, they are like "night and day", opposites. But the thing that people seem to forget about "opposites" is that they are alike in every way except for the one thing in which they differ.

Confucianism and Taoism are like Orthodox Judaism and Kabbalah. If you don't understand where they originate from, they look like completely different religions. But understanding their origins, one sees that the former focuses on the exoteric and the latter focuses on the esoteric implications of the same set of symbols, the same starting assumptions, the same ethos. The social and the mystical.


These two trends of thought represent opposite poles in Chinese philosophy, but in China they were always seen as poles of one and the same human nature, and thus as complementary.
http://www.shotokai.cl/otras_artes/china.html

Confucianism and Taoism are indigenous to China -- both had been in existence for 500 years before the introduction of Buddhism from India. An earlier religion (from which Confucianism and Taoism each grew out of) had existed in China for nearly 1,000 years.
CONFUCIANISM AND TAOISM

[lunamoth]

I read a bit about this topic in Karen Armstong's book The Great Transformation. I wish I had it with me but I returned it to the library. One thing I read there that was new to me is that the Taoist Way was meant to be guidance on how to run a governement, and it was adopted by indivduals to apply to their lives. Also she said that a group she referred to as 'the legalists' actually were critical for the rise of Taoism and introducing it to the courts and administration because they did not like Confuscianism's rules. I wish I had the book in front of me so I could re-read the reasoning behind that.

[Somkid]

I would suggest people that mix a belief with another are just searching for a better way for themselves. I was born and raised Christian my family is Christian and many of my friends in the USA are Christian some of them clergy I met when I was a chaplain, for me to "hate" them or what they believe would be ignorant and un-Buddhist.

I'm unsure why you feel that Taoism and Confucianism are the same, I'm not giving you my opinion on this matter I'm telling you what the philosophical texts say and what is taught in China and through out Asia, I have personally been a student of both schools however; I prefer Taoist thought as a practicing Buddhist that doesn't mix any belief with the Dharma however I am opened to other texts and philosophies and I like to hear what others believe and am tolerant towards others and their beliefs that is a basic Buddhist concept to be as such.

Taoism and Confucianism disagree on several points on their understanding of how the world functions and the best role for a person to play in that world. It is difficult to say that one is a criticism of another granted and there are comparable issues in which Taoist writings can be interpreted as directly addressing the more troubling aspects of Confucianism.

Confucianism tends to despise nature. Writings of Confucian scholars show nature to be cruel and symbolize all the negative in the world. They fear it and hide from it. In his poetry, the Confucian Tu Fu uses the most frightening aspects of nature to show his discomfort in being out in the wild, "I feared wild beasts would hear her cries." (Tu Fu 1384) Civilization is a place from where nature can be excluded.

"Oh, to own a mighty mansion of a hundred thousand rooms, A great roof for the poorest gentlemen of all this world, a place to make them smile, A building unshaken by wind or rain, as solid as a mountain, Oh, when shall I see before my eyes a towering roof such as this?" (1388) He is desiring to take all the people, or at least his chosen gentlemen, of the world out of nature and hide them behind protective walls and roof.

Taoism enjoys the beauty in nature. The writings of Taoists seek to live in harmony with nature, not unlike Buddhism. The Taoist Paradise of "The Peach Blossom Spring" is a place where people live as a part of nature, not hidden from it, "after a few dozen steps it suddenly opened out onto a broad and level plain where well-built houses were surrounded by rich fields and pretty ponds. Mulberry, bamboo and other trees and plants grew there, and criss-cross paths skirted the fields." (T'ao Ch'ien 1360)

Perhaps a good way to understand Taoism by comparing it with Confucianism is that most ideas of Confucius are counter to Taoism. Confucianism is concerned primarily with the needs of society, and unlike Taoism, not the ability of a person to live in harmony with nature. Lao Tzu felt that simplicity of the heart would lead to balanced manners and rituals. But conservative Confucius felt that humanity needed to be trained and controlled through strict observation of social rules. Confucianism is a guide to morality and good government. Confucius stated that the ideal person was one of good moral character. The ideal person was also truly reverent in worship and sincerely respected his father (humm, mother was not mentioned) and his ruler; so when these types of people were rulers, their moral example would inspire the people to lead good lives.

So the big difference is, like the difference between an "authoritative" government and a "laissez-faire" one. Lao Tzu is held to be Confucius' real adversary. But it is more accurate to say that the essential difference is the difference between Lao Tzu's direct way to the Tao and Confucius' detour by way of the human order, Confucius represents the classical, Lao Tzu the romantic, Confucius stresses social responsibility, Lao Tzu praises spontaneity and naturalness,
Confucius' focus is on the human, Lao Tzu's on what transcends the human, Confucius roams within society, Lao Tzu wanders beyond."

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I read a bit about this topic in Karen Armstong's book The Great Transformation. I wish I had it with me but I returned it to the library. One thing I read there that was new to me is that the Taoist Way was meant to be guidance on how to run a governement, and it was adopted by indivduals to apply to their lives.

32.
TAO is always nameless.
Small as it is in its Primal Simplicity,
It is inferior to nothing in the world.
If only a ruler could cling to it,
Everything will render homage to him.
Heaven and Earth will be harmonized
And send down sweet dew.
Peace and order will reign among the people
Without any command from above.

37.
TAO never makes any ado,
And yet it does everything.
If a ruler can cling to it,
All things will grow of themselves.
When they have grown and tend to make a stir,
It is time to keep them in their place by the aid of the
nameless Primal Simplicity,
Which alone can curb the desires of men.
When the desires of men are curbed, there will be peace,
And the world will settle down of its own accord.