Logic vs Religion (Buddhism, pray, bible, faith, Christianity)

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

It's entirely possible I'm mistaken. But I don't believe I am.

You admit that you might be mistaken. That means you don't know it.

Really? People have had personal encounters with the exact same Holy Spirit who is described in the canonical bible and yet believe God didn't create the universe? That's passing strange. So strange in fact that I doubt that they've actually experienced that particular Spirit. It may have been a spirit all right, but certainly not the Holy Spirit with whom I deal.

You should check out the mysticism threads. Experiencing the Holy Spirit is a mystical experience which is then explained through the use of Christian symbols. Many people have had an experience just like what you've experienced, but use different symbols to explain it to others. It seems pretty arrogant to me to assume that you are one of a very select few who have experienced the "real Holy Spirit".

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by mball1297

You admit that you might be mistaken. That means you don't know it.

That's a quaint view of knowledge.

You should check out the mysticism threads. Experiencing the Holy Spirit is a mystical experience which is then explained through the use of Christian symbols. Many people have had an experience just like what you've experienced, but use different symbols to explain it to others. It seems pretty arrogant to me to assume that you are one of a very select few who have experienced the "real Holy Spirit".

I don't say it's a very select few. Indeed, if I'm right, about a third of the currently living human population has had an experience somewhat similar to mine. Also, the Holy Spirit is a being with very specific attributes. He's the being detailed in Judeo-Christian scripture. If others have had experiences with other spirits, that's fine and good. I just don't assume that all persons who have had experience with something they call a spirit or even a great spirit is the same spirit with whom I deal. It's not arrogant for me to say this. I say this on the strength of my own religious tradition, a tradition that people are certainly free to disagree with if they wish.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

It's revealed to me in scripture, and the Holy Spirit witnesses to my conscience of the fact. I also take the cosmological argument as a fairly straightforward support for the idea, although my conviction is not based on that argument.

So if I understand your terminology, you're saying that you know that God created the earth because the Bible says so? O.K., how do you know the Bible is true?

Among other things, the cosmological argument assumes that the universe is finite and temporal. We don't know that.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Really? People have had personal encounters with the exact same Holy Spirit who is described in the canonical bible and yet believe God didn't create the universe? That's passing strange. So strange in fact that I doubt that they've actually experienced that particular Spirit. It may have been a spirit all right, but certainly not the Holy Spirit with whom I deal.

And your holy spirit the is the special, true, authentic holy spirit, while everyone else's is....? Arrogant much?

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

I don't say it's a very select few. Indeed, if I'm right, about a third of the currently living human population has had an experience somewhat similar to mine. Also, the Holy Spirit is a being with very specific attributes. He's the being detailed in Judeo-Christian scripture. If others have had experiences with other spirits, that's fine and good. I just don't assume that all persons who have had experience with something they call a spirit or even a great spirit is the same spirit with whom I deal. It's not arrogant for me to say this. I say this on the strength of my own religious tradition, a tradition that people are certainly free to disagree with if they wish.

That's a hip, modern, no, post-modern view of knowledge, or rather anti-knowledge, in which anyone's vision is equally true? You know it and Hakim nows different and you're both right? Cuz, you know, Hakim has holy book and a religious tradition and a holy spirit and everything--it's just completely different from yours. And by wild coincidence, his happens to be the one he was taught as a little boy, and so does yours.

So again if I follow you, you know this because your mommy and daddy told you? I would think tht would be an excellent reason to doubt it, not to believe it. C

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

So if I understand your terminology, you're saying that you know that God created the earth because the Bible says so? O.K., how do you know the Bible is true?

The Holy Spirit witnesses to its truth and provides me with that assurance.

Among other things, the cosmological argument assumes that the universe is finite and temporal. We don't know that.

No, we don't. But it's more reasonable to believe that than the alternative. And as I said before, the argument doesn't provide the basis for my knowledge, it's just a good support.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

That's a hip, modern, no, post-modern view of knowledge, or rather anti-knowledge, in which anyone's vision is equally true? You know it and Hakim nows different and you're both right? Cuz, you know, Hakim has holy book and a religious tradition and a holy spirit and everything--it's just completely different from yours. And by wild coincidence, his happens to be the one he was taught as a little boy, and so does yours.

So again if I follow you, you know this because your mommy and daddy told you? I would think tht would be an excellent reason to doubt it, not to believe it. C

Let's see if I can put some flesh and bones on your straw man. I certainly don't believe that everyone's vision is equally true. Insofar as a person's vision coheres with the biblical one, that person's vision is true. Insofar as it doesn't, it's not. Hakim may have a holy spirit, but unless that spirit affirms what my Holy Spirit affirms -- namely the truth of Christian revelation -- it's not the same spirit I do business with. I don't believe because mommy and daddy told me. I believe because the Holy Spirit told me. Lucky for me, I have good arguments (e.g., cosmological, teleological, and moral) to support my belief, but they don't provide the foundation for it.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

And your holy spirit the is the special, true, authentic holy spirit, while everyone else's is....? Arrogant much?

Well, the Holy Spirit I have is the same as about one third of the human population's, so that's far from saying that everyone else is wrong or follows the wrong spirit. And how is it arrogant to believe that the Holy Spirit has revealed stuff to me? I don't say he did so because I'm so awesome or particularly worthy. Certainly I didn't do anything to deserve it. I've received a gift for which I'm suitably grateful and which I'm entirely certain I don't deserve.