Logic vs Religion (Buddhism, pray, bible, faith, Christianity)

[MoonWater]

Originally Posted by andys

It seems that some people do not understand the difference between Logic and Religion".

Logic is a set of rules introduced by Aristotle, used to establish the validity of an argument. It is essentially a tool used to determine whether or not the conclusion of an argument can be deduced from its premises (deductive reasoning). Logic, itself, makes no assertions or claims.

Religion, on the other hand, is a set of beliefs or claims, usually based upon some enlightened or "divine" words from a prophet or god. It is usually an organized movement maintained by a hierarchy of authority figures. Its dogma is usually considered beyond critique or refutation.

Religion proclaims truth, while Logic investigates it. Religion is about following your heart; Logic is about using your head. They have nothing in common.They have nothing to do with one another. Period.

Not always. My religion for example requires that I investigate that which I hold to be true.

There are times when following your heart is the way to go, and times when using your head is advisable. The trick is to know which body part to employ under which circumstances. Art and music, for example, are only two of many wonderful experiences that belong to the domain of the human heart. They do not admit of formal logical inquiry. They are simply to be taken in and enjoyed. In contrast, sales pitches, hypotheses, accusations, and recommendations are examples of things that do require rational thinking to determine a resolution or a proper course of action.

Why must it be one or the other? Why can't there be a middle ground?

What about religion? Does it fall under the domain of the mind or the heart? The tempting answer is to say "both". But I would advise caution before replying too hastily. Religion, like art and music, can indeed provide a certain amount of pleasure to the senses (euphoria to some). But religion is not an experience, itself. It is a set of propositions offered as "truth" or "the way" to live our lives. Determining the validity of these inspired propositions is clearly not a job for the ill equipped heart, though religions implore us to take this "blind leap". It is left to the intellect to scrutinize the validity of religious assertions and determine a verdict.

For my religion both mind and heart are required. My patron does not ask me to take a "blind leap". The path I follow is right for me but I do not claim it to be right for everyone nor do I claim it is the ultimate truth.

The quest for truth is not only noble, it is courageous. Atheist are willing to sacrifice the comforting belief in an afterlife of bliss in favour of a tidbit of truth. Yet so often we are scorned or pitied by the religious as narrow-minded, or too rational for our own good. I think it is interesting that our commitment to employ reason to uncover truth—no matter what may be revealed, pleasant or not—is itself a conscious rational decision. And it is this one all-important decision, the decision to use the mind to uncover the mysteries of our world, that accounts for the all the benefits in medicine, technology, for example, that we enjoy as a result. Religion, as history attests, is the arch enemy of science, free thinking, and open inquiry—of "logic". Reason and Religion are like oil and water.

You seem to be assuming that either one can be religious or one can be reasonable(if that is not what you meant I apologize and maybe you could tell me what you meant). Just because one is religious does not mean one must be unreasonable or illogical and just because someone is reasonable and logical doesn't mean they won't be religious. In fact we've seen what happens when logic is barred from religion. We get the extremists. I can't speak for others but I feel that religion must necessarily include reason and logic or it will get way out of hand. Now of course this might lead to the question of why bother with religion at all, why not just stick with logic and reason. This because alone logic and reason are cold. Logic and reason have no concept of right and wrong. This is a an argument that is logical can still be false if the premises are faulty. I'm not saying logic necessarily requires RELIGION but it does require something along those lines. It doesn't have to be religion or even require a belief in God or anything like that. I'm sure even the atheists here rely on more than just logic when making their decisions in terms of morality and ethics.

[andys]

MoonWater
(This is in reply to your previous reply to me. Since then, you have posted a subsequent reply, which I will read and possibly respond to later.)

Your reply to me is very telling; you say, "You think that the only reason people want to believe is because of the prospect of paradise when they reach the after-life?"

Notice you say "people want to believe". That's exactly my point. When one seeks an answer that one is predisposed to find, they'll usually find exactly that answer. That's no surprise. So it's just a question of "why" were they motivated to find that particular answer.

As I already indicated, when you consider the enticing perks that most religions sell, it's just a mater of which one did its job. Not the least of which is the promise of an afterlife of eternal bliss (which you claim would be "dull and pointless"—whew, you're a hard man to please). But there are so many other bribes to consider, like the unconditional love, understanding, and forgiveness one will receive from a supernatural father figure, who guides you through life and provides all your needs (dare I say "sugar daddy"). This, ultra parent, I expect, is particularly appealing to insecure people and victims from broken homes or teenagers whose parents don't love them or "understand" them.

Clearly, in view of the conspicuous absence of rational reasons to support belief in the existence of a supernatural being, the explanation for this belief must lie elsewhere. Human being's need for love and our fear of death, is a recipe made in heaven for religion to capitalize upon.

One final observation. I was encouraged by your remark, "Do you have any evidence to back this up?"
Evidence? Be very careful for what you wish for. Evidence is precisely what leads to the demise of religion and all of its antiquated dogmas. Better to seek that warm feeling that comes from within your heart. Once you truly demand evidence, Pandora's box is opened and it can never be shut.

[maro]

i always see people who ask :Is the existance of God logic or does it make sense? , but the question that always bothers me : IS the absence of God logic or makes sense ? , without God , can anything be meaningful ? can life be meaningful any more ?
i really tried hard to look through the eyes of those who deny God , but i couldn't .

People always ask for proof , and complain that they don't see the proof ...but the question is : is there anything that isn't proof for the existance of a superior being ...the problem is not in the lack of the proof...but in the eyes that can't see...it's not the road that's dim....it's the darkness of our souls that blocks us from the divine being...

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by maro

without God , can anything be meaningful ? can life be meaningful any more ?

It certainly can be. It's just up to you to provide the meaning. That's a good thing, unless you like having someone else do it for you. Other people are all too happy to try.

[MoonWater]

Originally Posted by andys

MoonWater
(This is in reply to your previous reply to me. Since then, you have posted a subsequent reply, which I will read and possibly respond to later.)

Your reply to me is very telling; you say, "You think that the only reason people want to believe is because of the prospect of paradise when they reach the after-life?"

Notice you say "people want to believe". That's exactly my point. When one seeks an answer that one is predisposed to find, they'll usually find exactly that answer. That's no surprise. So it's just a question of "why" were they motivated to find that particular answer.

perhaps that was poor wording on my part. I've met many people who believe, not because they want to, but simply because they do. Some experience in there life has caused them to interpret things in a way that they believe the religion of choice is the right one and it was not necessarily a conscious decision on their part brought about by a "desire" to believe. I myself don't believe because I "want to" I just do. It makes sense to me and feels right to me. In fact my life would probably be easier and less complicated if I didn't believe

As I already indicated, when you consider the enticing perks that most religions sell, it's just a mater of which one did its job. Not the least of which is the promise of an afterlife of eternal bliss

But the only "enticing perk" you mentioned was the prospect of a blissful after-life.

(which you claim would be "dull and pointless"—whew, you're a hard man to please).

you mean "hard woman"

But there are so many other bribes to consider, like the unconditional love, understanding, and forgiveness one will receive from a supernatural father figure, who guides you through life and provides all your needs (dare I say "sugar daddy"). This, ultra parent, I expect, is particularly appealing to insecure people and victims from broken homes or teenagers whose parents don't love them or "understand" them.

Then wouldn't most followers of religion come from broken homes or have a history of depression or any of the other things you mentioned? And besides religion isn't limited to believing in a "sugar daddy" as you put it and in fact the concept of an all-loving, etc. God is one that (as far as I know) appears only in the abrahamic traditions(though there might be others that I'm unaware of). These are not the only religions nor is this the only god concept out there. My patron Goddess is not "all loving, all forgiving, all powerful, etc. She is a wise spirit who teaches me and guides me. There are as many reasons people believe as there are well people. Sure there are benefits, why believe if doesn't bring any good to your life? And just because there are benefits doesn't mean people people believe because they were "bribed".

Clearly, in view of the conspicuous absence of rational reasons to support belief in the existence of a supernatural being, the explanation for this belief must lie elsewhere. Human being's need for love and our fear of death, is a recipe made in heaven for religion to capitalize upon.

You assume religion is here to capitalize on us. And just because you disagree with something or don't believe in something doesn't mean it's "irrational" .

One final observation. I was encouraged by your remark, "Do you have any evidence to back this up?"
Evidence? Be very careful for what you wish for. Evidence is precisely what leads to the demise of religion and all of its antiquated dogmas. Better to seek that warm feeling that comes from within your heart. Once you truly demand evidence, Pandora's box is opened and it can never be shut.

Can you name any one religion that has "fallen" because of "evidence"? I've heard other people present what they call evidence and in fact it doesn't support anything. So I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

[eXiled]

There is no logic in religion, which makes it all the more acceptable to people looking to God for answers. I get it. I really do. However, when people are searching for answers, desperate people, such as myself, we want unequivical proof of an existance, not a scripture or the always favorite, and increasingly laughable, take it on faith. We want answers when we're on our last rope. A scripture isn't going to save my life. I had faith when I was well, and even the first few months I was sick. Now, unanswered prayers have led me take where I stand on religion and now, I want logical proof as to why I'm damn near on my deathbed and God hasn't stepped in.

Also, God didn't save the life of a friend of mine that died today at such an early life. His family is devoutly religious and said God would heal him... sadly, he passed away today. Now, I'd never tell them my stance on religion because I don't want to tread there with a grieving family, but all logic points to the fact that prayer and God doesn't lead to healing and happiness.

I think I confused myself on this post... sorry for the rant. =**

[MoonWater]

Originally Posted by eXiled

There is no logic in religion, which makes it all the more acceptable to people looking to God for answers. I get it. I really do. However, when people are searching for answers, desperate people, such as myself, we want unequivical proof of an existance, not a scripture or the always favorite, and increasingly laughable, take it on faith. We want answers when we're on our last rope. A scripture isn't going to save my life. I had faith when I was well, and even the first few months I was sick. Now, unanswered prayers have led me take where I stand on religion and now, I want logical proof as to why I'm damn near on my deathbed and God hasn't stepped in.

Also, God didn't save the life of a friend of mine that died today at such an early life. His family is devoutly religious and said God would heal him... sadly, he passed away today. Now, I'd never tell them my stance on religion because I don't want to tread there with a grieving family, but all logic points to the fact that prayer and God doesn't lead to healing and happiness.

I think I confused myself on this post... sorry for the rant. =**

Your making the assumption that if God exists everything would/should be perfect or that he would/must fix all the problems of the world. This is not necessarily the case and in fact most likely isn't.

[andys]

MoonWater, oh, you're a female. I didn't bother to look at the male/female icon. So much for my inquisitive mind!

I am slipping behind your lengthy and detailed replies and you'll forgive me if I do not have the patience to respond in kind. (I don't even know how to create those nice little gray boxes containing quotations!)

Let me attempt to make my position more clear and touch on the important areas. I maintain that anyone who is religious is religious for a reason. I have offered an explanation for this curious phenomenon, namely, that religions notoriously offer very appealing incentives for embracing their doctrines. I have offered two examples 1) the promise of a life after death in paradise and 2) a personal relationship with a supreme being who offers comfort, love, and guidance all through life. Other seductive offerings include knowledge of the meaning of life, a sense of belonging in something wondrous, even a feeling of being special or better than others. The list could fill volumes.

Now, your position, is that belief is like spontaneous combustion—poof—it just happens. In your words, "I myself don't believe because I 'want to' I just do". Well, I myself, don't believe this for a second. Religious (adult) people, I presume, don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause, or Jack Frost, but they do believe in Angels with wings, life after death, supernatural god(s), and other things that are just as goofy. There HAS to be a reason. To believe in the unbelievable, requires a suspension of disbelief. There is not a tidbit of evidence to support any religion on earth. Just name a religion and I'll show you a Tooth Fairy leader with a congregation of believers (Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, are some of my favourites.) People who are otherwise rational human beings are curiously drawn to such transparent nonsense and reverently abandon their precious faculty of reason, almost in an act of surrender. Let me repeat this again: To believe in the unbelievable, requires a suspension of disbelief.

Why people are so drawn to religion is, no doubt, more complex than my simple explanation. It surely includes other factors, not the least of which include lack of education, gullibility, insecurity, the need to find a comfortable meaning of life, etc. It is a fascinating topic. I would not be surprised if more than one Doctoral Thesis has not been written on the subject.

Before I end, you ask me "Can you name any one religion that has 'fallen' because of 'evidence'"?
Here is an example of lack of education, at least in the area of Logic. The burden of proof (evidence) always rests upon the shoulders of the one who asserts a proposition. Not surprising, many believers are not familiar with Logic, and are often heard revealing their ignorance of it by uttering demands such as, "Alright, maybe I can't prove my religion is true, but you can't prove it is false!" How silly. I trust you do understand that one's claim that Santa Clause exists, demands evidence from the person making the claim, not evidence from others to refute it.