May I ask of our Muslim Friends. (creation, doctrine, worship)

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

Dude you know very well that the Untouchables Dalits i was talking about had nothing to do with Meccas and non-muslims. further explained in point 4.

The untouchability you talk about is illegal in India and no Hindus are complaining. This has come about through Hindu social reformers. But the untouchability practiced in Mecca (of not allowing non-Muslims entry) is a legitimate tradition of Islam.

Originally Posted by nawab

Every religion has two kind of people Beleivers and non-beleivers A Christian and a non-Christian (Gentile), A Jew and a Non-Jew (Akum), A Hindu and a non-Hindu, A muslim and a non-Muslim(Kafir).I dont see how you were trying to put a false allegation on us, Unfortunately you were unsuccessful.

The “Muslim/Kafir” dichotomy in Islam is not merely the “Hindu/non-Hindu” dichotomy in Hinduism. In Islam Kafirs are on the wrong path whereas in Hinduism the “non-Hindu” is on a different path, not necessarily a wrong path.

Originally Posted by nawab

Mecca is a Members Zone, Anyone wants to enter have to become a Member, and the criteria to becoming a member is to become a Muslim. The place where i lived in China before, in Xinjiang, there were offlimits to me because of the Army Base of China, I dont go around telling people they dont let me enter a Military base, they are discriminating me.it would be stupid.

Just like Islam has its members’ zone and the Chinese Army has its members’ zone, different castes of Hindus had its members’ zones. So why do you have a problem with Hindus’ members’ zones alone?

Originally Posted by nawab

You are right, our family were not untouchable, However, My Great Fathers tomb is still in the Battlefield of Marwar. He converted to Islam, leaving everything behind and to reside in Sodawas, later my grandfather moved to Pakistan but i dont want to whine about the sacrifices but obviously there was also difficulty but that his besides my point.

The Muslims from India who went to Pakistan are called Mohajirs (refugees) even today. The Hindus from Pakistan who came to India have been integrated with the rest of India’s Hindu society.

Originally Posted by nawab

Hinduism does not beleives in validity of all religions. During the time of Jains, Jains were prosecuted, the Buddists were prosecuted, every minority was prosecuted. Just compare Pakistan and India in this sense. Do you hear any Hindu-Muslim riots in Pakistan. There are 3 million Hindus living in Karachi alone, How many muslims were living in Gujarat during the riots. less than 2 million.

According to the latest census, Pakistan’s population is 165 million. Of that less than 2% are Hindus. So your figure 3 million Hindus must be the total Hindus in Pakistan, unless all the Hindus of Pakistan live in Karachi. Pakistan is 4 times larger than Gujarat and has over 3 times the population. Gujarat’s population is a little over 50 million. 2 million Muslims would mean 4% of the population. All-India it is 150 million Muslims or 12% of the population.

Originally Posted by nawab

We follow Islamic rule in Pakistan thats why there is no trouble with Christians or Hindus but in India you are a seculeur country thats why there is so much conflicts.

If there are no Hindu/Christian problems in Pakistan, it is because any trouble from them will not be tolerated in Pakistan. Just recently a Hindu was killed in a factory in Pakistan because he argued about Islam. In India Muslims have more rights than Hindus and having once ruled India, Muslims often try to flex their muscles and hence riots used to ensue. Now even riots are rare. Now the problem is Pakistani sponsored Islamic and non-Islamic terrorism in India.

Originally Posted by nawab

Beleive me all religions do that killing apostates. My Great grand father, I would say was someone with enough Power by Allahs blessings so no one could do him any harm.

Islam sanctions killing of apostates. Hinduism does not have a tradition of killing apostates – in fact it does not even have the apostate concept in its scriptures. If it had, probably Islam would not have flourished in India.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

Regarding Quran, I will only say that it was important for the Hindus to know about Islam but not for muslims to know about Hindus. Why, If The Hindus follow thier own scriptures properly they should be converting to Islam, as the verse indicated before.

Are you saying Hindu scriptures are like the Quran? If that is so, why don’t Muslims follow Hindu scriptures, at least Indian Muslims?

Originally Posted by nawab

For Muslims we are told in the Quran that we should not prioritize among Prophets, some Prophets stories are told and some are not told, thats besides the point. A prophet was sent every nation Quran 35:24, Today is the time of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH you should be following the Last Revealation the Quran as indicated before in your scripture, i will post again for you below:

“Today is the time of the Prophet Mohammad”. I am afraid Mohammad’s time ended in the Middle Ages. Muslims were a powerful people at that time. They conquered a large portion of the world. But with a counter-attack from Christianity, Muslims were reduced to paupers with their last Caliph being dethroned by the British. Now once again the Muslims have arisen through Oil Wealth. But the arising is not good enough to dominate the world. The world is now in the hands of the Christian nations. The next powers are predicted to be India, China and Japan – all Hindu/Buddhist nations. The 22nd century? Only Allah knows.

Originally Posted by nawab

Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised: At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatma, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

The word Pishacha means devil. Why did Mohammad (or whoever) disguise as the devil? I once more ask, why when an ancient Hindu scripture(?) could predict Mohammad, the glorious Quran, said to be directly from Allah, has not written even a single sentence of the Hindu culture which existed for thousands of years before the Quran and continues to exist powerfully even today? Does it not mean that the Quran is only a provincial scripture whereas Hindu scriptures are universal?

Originally Posted by nawab

Yajurved Na Tas Ya Pratima asti (sanskrit quotation) Of him there is no Pratima (it can be translated Picture, Sculpture, Photo, Idol)

Your quotation of this and other verses in the Vedas to prove that, just like the Quran, the Vedas also disapprove idol worship, is not correct. In Islam, disapproval is only of concrete idols made by hands. It has no problem with the “sound idol” called Allah. Hinduism goes further and teaches about a stage where there would be no need even for idols of the mind. This is because Hinduism teaches a stage of “no-mind” and Vedanta, part of the Vedas, is famous for this teaching. This proves that the Vedas are not disapproving idols like the Quran disapproves idols, but it is only pointing to a higher teaching where all dualities vanish and only the non-dual stage remain. It must be borne in mind that as long as you separate God and his Creation, God would remain an idol vis-à-vis his creation. Therefore all religions, Islam included, are idol worshipping religions except the teachings of non-duality in the Vedas.

Originally Posted by nawab

May Allah Showers his guidiance on all,

Indeed, may Allah shower his guidance on all.

Originally Posted by nawab

P.S. I apologise if i have hurt anyones feelings, i was just quoting scriptures with Logic. If i am wrong i am always open for corrections.

You have not hurt my feelings at all. If, however, I have hurt your feelings, I apologise. I am also always open to corrections.

[nawab]

Dear Bro,

I thought you were a knowledgeable person, but i think i was wrong so i will start from the begining
1) Achoot (untouchables) are they unaccepted, they only came into the society after Gandi ji lifted them up. Even if you seen the Film Mangal Pandey (Amir Khan) you will see how the Achoots were treated. Achoots mean cant be touched. If you cant touch your brother in faith what kind of religion are you worshipping. We pray shoulder to shoulder, You create difference of classes to get profits from.

2) Kafir means a person who rejects faith, it is used for Non-muslims, in Arab land if you call a non-muslim Arab a Kafir he wont be offended, it is only in the Sub continent people find it offensive because of non-tolerance. Yes, in Islam we beleive that we are the only ones, who are on the true path. If we are right than the rest have to wrong, I dont understand whats wrong with this doctrine. the Christians, Jews we all say that. However, for Hinduism you dont have anything to offer thats why you dont mind co-exsisting. Suppose i am a maths teacher my three students tell me A 2+2=4,B 2+3=4,C 2+4=4, I cant say that because i am a tolerant person, i love everyone so you all are right. I love them thats why i will say A is right and the rest are wrong.

3) Ok I agree with you for the sake of arguement that, the 4 classes are members zone, so i would still think that a society where everyone is equal is better than a society where there is someone supperior to me and inferior to me, I cant marry some women and some Women cant marry me. I cant eat with someone and someone cant eat with me. This is called Universal brotherhood, Maybe because you are too much indoctrinated by Caste system, you wont understand what brotherhood is. There is a problem when you have 4 zones within a zone. we have one zone only thats how it should be.

4) You say that Muhajjars (do not mean reffuges) if you dont know Urdu please dont put false allegations. Reffuges in urdu is Sehasi Panah, Muhajjars means people who migrated. Does Islam teaches us to say that. I am also considered a Muhajjar but my friends do joke about it but that dosent violate my rights, Mostly is the Punjabis (Locals) and Muhajjars(migrators) this is not a divison. Or even if there is we have learned this from Hindu society,the divisns, the Castes, the Wedding traditions, clothing of women, In Arab land thats how a real Muslim Society should be looking like.

5) MY friend we know very well that no one needs written rights, rights which are given but never practiced. Is there any discriminated law in India which is practiced no, In pakistan there is. Even though the population but we have less riots.

6) Thats what you think , Last time i was telling my Buddist friend from China, You are lucky the Hindus didnt killed Budda or you would have no religion by now.He was going to be killed when he ran away towards Sri Lanka. Many Christian converts were killed by Hindus. Islam would not have flourished in India, Where were your Kshatriyas when the Muslims conqurers came, you guys had more muslim kings, than hindu kings in the latest centries. read your history how many battles against the Muslims have the Hindus won, Rememeber the Temple of Somnath story about Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Gori, Sultan Qutb Shah, Muhammad bin Qasim,I didnt mentioned the Mughals, on the contrary the hindus submitted to the muslim rule without resistant. If we wanted to convert the whole India to islam by sword we could have done it but this was not allowed. Remember how the Muslim population increased when Auragzeb began his quest. Even i disapprove his actions seriously as a muslim. I just quoted him to prove my point. The Hindus are still 80% in India despite 1000 years of Muslim rule, The 80% Hindus should bear witness for muslims that we are tolerant people.

7) That was more like a retorical question, e.g. in windows 98 came, they advertised about a Windows 2000 that is comming, when Windows 2000 is here why do you need to talk about Windows 98, it is already Obselete. why do we need to use Windows 98 when we have a better version. real islam is from Arabia, it is not different for Indian Muslims.

8) dont worry ups & downs are always there, I rememeber my Christian proffesor he told me once that he admired Muslim spirits. I asked him why. he explained to me. Being a staunch Christian he approved the crusades which i could understood from his point of view. He told me .

that you Muslims have been a Challenge to us, you conqured the once Christian lands in north east coast of Africa and middle east never to be retaken, You even came to spain to rule for 800 years, you even came to knock on the Gates of Vienna. Whats more interesting is now, even when you are down in the gutters you still tell us Dont drink alcohol, dont eat pork, dont say Trinity, Jesus is only a messanger, dont go out with girls.

So, ups & downs are always there, plus we were informed about this already. Hopefully still at this age you can see the conversion rates to Islam from other relligions.

Plus you calling India a HIndu nation, i dont agree with that. India is a Seculer Country with no Official relligion. Nepal is the only Hindu nation in this world. Being leading nations for 100-200 years is nothing, this is only yesterday my friend. These are just there stratergies to increase investment.

9) I have already mentioned that you should inform people about the future and not about the past.
If your own book could predict why dont you follow it then, The prophecy was true we muslims came to India, This was the Chosen meat eating religion of Ishwar whose followers will be called Musalman. There is even a prophecy about our Prophet Muhammad is called a Melecha was ride a camel(a brahmin cannot ride a camel) in a desert and delivere a universal religion. We should not focus on the past but rather look into the future ahead to plan.

9) Finally, I just want you to be honest with yourself when you think about Allah in your mind, does any picture comes in your mind. I have completey no idea what your saying Islam is the leader of religions which do not require an idol. We Muslims from the begining have reached a higer concentration stage. This is a universal fact the we muslims dont worship idols.on the contrary we forbid monasticism, Fortune telling, Horescope of stars, Seeking aid from PIRS, Gurus, we consider these all things to be as Idiol worshipping. We only beleive in Al Qadar - The Divine Decree of Destiny

Peace be on those who receive guidiance

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

Dear Bro, I thought you were a knowledgeable person, but i think i was wrong so i will start from the beginning Achoot (untouchables) are they unaccepted, they only came into the society after Gandi ji lifted them up.

Dear Brother Nawab, It was possible for Gandhiji to lift up the untouchables within the Hindu fold because the idea of oneness is the very basis of Hinduism. Due to some historical faltering, a section of Hindu society became untouchables. But this is not sanctioned by Hinduism. In today’s newspaper (the Asian Age) I read that Muslim leadership is trying to have joint prayers by Shias and Sunnis during Id. They say if it can be done during Hajj why not during Id? Just as due to some historical developments, Shias and Sunnis started praying separately; similarly due to some historical developments a part of Hindu society became untouchable. Hindu social reformers have striven hard to abolish the practice.

Originally Posted by nawab

Even if you seen the Film Mangal Pandey (Amir Khan) you will see how the Achoots were treated. Achoots mean cant be touched. If you cant touch your brother in faith what kind of religion are you worshipping. We pray shoulder to shoulder, You create difference of classes to get profits from.

But you don’t allow women into your mosques. I hope Islamic social reformers will finally succeed in bringing equality in mosque entry. Today there is no restriction of entry of all Hindus in most of the temples. In some major temples, they allow entry to everyone, even non-Hindus. There now remain only a few temples that restrict entry to “upper castes” and Hindu social reformers will eventually free them also. I hope at least by that time women will be allowed entry into all mosques.

Originally Posted by nawab

2) Kafir means a person who rejects faith,

Kafir means a person who rejects Islamic faith and it also implies that a person who rejects Islamic faith is in error. It is hence derogatory word, unlike the word ‘non-Hindu’, which is only an identifying word.

Originally Posted by nawab

it is used for Non-muslims, in Arab land if you call a non-muslim Arab a Kafir he wont be offended, it is only in the Sub continent people find it offensive because of non-tolerance.

Hindus find the word offensive not because Hindus are intolerant but because Hindus accept other faiths also as legitimate.

Originally Posted by nawab

Yes, in Islam we beleive that we are the only ones, who are on the true path.

For me, this is a very shameful statement. Shameful that someone should be so narrow minded.

Originally Posted by nawab

If we are right than the rest have to wrong, I dont understand whats wrong with this doctrine.

. I sympathize with you, that your religion has taught you to be so narrow minded that you are not even aware that you are being narrow minded! To say only your religion is true is similar to saying that only your language is true. Of course there are many language bigots. But no educated person can accept that only his language is legitimate and all other languages are worthless.

Originally Posted by nawab

the Christians, Jews we all say that. However, for Hinduism you dont have anything to offer thats why you dont mind co-exsisting.

Hinduism has much to offer, most of all its legacy of broad-mindedness. That is why it is able to say that all religions are legitimate.

Originally Posted by nawab

Suppose i am a maths teacher my three students tell me A 2+2=4,B 2+3=4,C 2+4=4, I cant say that because i am a tolerant person, i love everyone so you all are right. I love them thats why i will say A is right and the rest are wrong.

Mathematics is not a matter of faith. So you can’t compare mathematical certainties with Islam, which is only a belief. That there is Allah is not universally acknowledged as a fact. It is only believed so by Muslims. 1 + 1 does not require any believing. It has already been proven to be a fact. Saying 1 + 1 = 2 and therefore Islam is true is trying to see a connection where there is none. Dr. Zakir Naik, who famously made this comparison, was being quite illogical.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

3) Ok I agree with you for the sake of arguement that, the 4 classes are members zone, so i would still think that a society where everyone is equal is better than a society where there is someone supperior to me and inferior to me,

Until Islam accepts that other religions are also equally valid, just as Hinduism does, Islam cannot envisage a universal society where everyone is equal. In fact, a society where everyone is equal is still an ideal. Hinduism envisages such a society with its vision of Advaita. I am afraid Islam even in theory does not envisage such a principle. It only talks of brotherhood of Islamic believers.

Originally Posted by nawab

I cant marry some women and some Women cant marry me. I cant eat with someone and someone cant eat with me. This is called Universal brotherhood,

Such segregation in Hinduism remains only in some villages in India today. Hindu leadership has been successful in its on-going fight against such tendencies.

Originally Posted by nawab

Maybe because you are too much indoctrinated by Caste system, you wont understand what brotherhood is. There is a problem when you have 4 zones within a zone. we have one zone only thats how it should be.

Whether we have 4 zones or 1 zone or zones within zones, we are still in zones. The ideal is to be free from all zones and have universal brotherhood. Till then, we are all travelling in the same boat.

Originally Posted by nawab

4) You say that Muhajjars (do not mean reffuges) if you dont know Urdu please dont put false allegations. Reffuges in urdu is Sehasi Panah, Muhajjars means people who migrated. Does Islam teaches us to say that. I am also considered a Muhajjar but my friends do joke about it but that dosent violate my rights, Mostly is the Punjabis (Locals) and Muhajjars(migrators) this is not a divison. Or even if there is we have learned this from Hindu society,the divisns, the Castes, the Wedding traditions, clothing of women, In Arab land thats how a real Muslim Society should be looking like.

You appear to be saying that you have retained some Hindu traditions but you are ashamed of it and would rather have incorporated the traditions of Arab lands, who are a truer Islamic society. I have no quarrel if you wish to see the Arabs as role models and forget all your links with your Hindu past. The truth is that you can change your religion but you cannot change your father or forefathers. You cannot say your father is no longer your father because you have changed your religion. You cannot declare that Arabs are your forefathers when Hindus from Hindustan were your forefathers. But if that is what you wish to do, I have no quarrel.

Originally Posted by nawab

5) MY friend we know very well that no one needs written rights, rights which are given but never practiced. Is there any discriminated law in India which is practiced no, In pakistan there is. Even though the population but we have less riots.

In Pakistan the non-Muslims are second class citizens.

Originally Posted by nawab

6) Thats what you think , Last time i was telling my Buddist friend from China, You are lucky the Hindus didnt killed Budda or you would have no religion by now.He was going to be killed when he ran away towards Sri Lanka.

No religious leader has been killed by the Hindus, let alone Buddha, because Hinduism believes in the plurality of religions. It is only Islam which sanctions the killing of non-believers. The great Sufi Mansoor Al Hilaj was killed by Muslims because he said “Ane Al Haq” or “I am the Truth”.

Originally Posted by nawab

Many Christian converts were killed by Hindus. Islam would not have flourished in India, Where were your Kshatriyas when the Muslims conqurers came, you guys had more muslim kings, than hindu kings in the latest centries. read your history how many battles against the Muslims have the Hindus won, Rememeber the Temple of Somnath story about Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Gori, Sultan Qutb Shah, Muhammad bin Qasim,I didnt mentioned the Mughals, on the contrary the hindus submitted to the muslim rule without resistant. If we wanted to convert the whole India to islam by sword we could have done it but this was not allowed.

India, fortunately, was not destined to be an Islamic country. Today Kashmir is being sought to be snatched away from India in the name of religion. Such attempts would be unsuccessful. In fact, Pakistan, which was formed in the name of Islam, split into two within 25 years. Today in Pakistan Sunnis and Shias attack each others’ mosques regularly.

Originally Posted by nawab

Remember how the Muslim population increased when Auragzeb began his quest. Even i disapprove his actions seriously as a muslim. I just quoted him to prove my point.

It is no wonder that you disapprove of Aurangzeb’s action - he was responsible for the end of Islamic rule in India. This happened because he sought to impose fundamentalist Islam, including jiziya, on the Hindus. The Hindu backlash on Aurangzeb should be a lesson for fundamentalist Islamists of today who take to terrorism.

Originally Posted by nawab

The Hindus are still 80% in India despite 1000 years of Muslim rule, The 80% Hindus should bear witness for muslims that we are tolerant people.

That is because Hinduism has deep roots in India and it was not possible for Islam to uproot it though Islam succeeded in cutting off many of its branches, resulting in the creation of an Islamic nation called Pakistan.

Originally Posted by nawab

That was more like a retorical question, e.g. in windows 98 came, they advertised about a Windows 2000 that is comming, when Windows 2000 is here why do you need to talk about Windows 98, it is already Obselete. why do we need to use Windows 98 when we have a better version. real islam is from Arabia, it is not different for Indian Muslims.

. Windows keep updating their versions. It has not stopped, like Islam, to declare that its latest version is the final version for all times.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

dont worry ups & downs are always there, I rememeber my Christian proffesor he told me once that he admired Muslim spirits. I asked him why. he explained to me. Being a staunch Christian he approved the crusades which i could understood from his point of view. He told me that you Muslims have been a Challenge to us, you conqured the once Christian lands in north east coast of Africa and middle east never to be retaken, You even came to spain to rule for 800 years, you even came to knock on the Gates of Vienna. Whats more interesting is now, even when you are down in the gutters you still tell us Dont drink alcohol, dont eat pork, dont say Trinity, Jesus is only a messanger, dont go out with girls. So, ups & downs are always there, plus we