May I ask of our Muslim Friends. (creation, doctrine, worship)

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

look, brother you have mentioned 2 things, 1st the stone is the direction of prayer, the real direction is the Masjid al Haram where the Kabaa (Black Cube) is located. that is our Kibla (direcection) I hope this part is clear, the stone is not. Remember the stone is only in one of the four sides but people perform prayers around the cube.

When prayers are performed around or towards the Black Cube, it is the same as prayers being performed around or towards the Black Stone as the Black Stone is embedded in the Black Cube.

Originally Posted by nawab

Moreover, I said, if you feel it is an extra ordinary stone, from the way you are thinking i agree with you, but see brother in Islam we admire the painter not the painting. the stone was also created, Allah creates but is not created so, we dont feel any created things are extra ordinary. our creator is far superior. for him to create a million Jesus is just like that and to create a million of these kind of stones is just like that. We are too much used to miracles, in this world there are alot of amazing things, for more information i suggest you can study from Harun Yahya videos about Islamic Creationism, I hope my explaination was clear enough.

It is true that a painting cannot come into existence without a painter but it is also true that a painter cannot come into existence without his painting. This same logic can be applied to the Creator and His creation. The Creator and the created are both dependent on the other to exist (in their respective states). Therefore the logic that Allah creates but is not created is erroneous. Allah becomes the Creator by virtue of His creation. Therefore do not imagine that created things are not extraordinary. But for them, there would be no Allah the Creator. Where does Allah disappear then? Into the state of Brahman, says Hinduism. I do not believe there is a parallel concept in Islam. Therefore you are unlikely to understand this concept unless you have been introduced to Hinduism.

This is also the greatest flaw of Islam - its contention that the Creator and the created are separate. They are not separate for the simple reason that one cannot exist without the other. And Islam (to the best of my understanding) does not touch on the subject of the state when the twain (Creator-created) no longer exist in their respective states. Only Hinduism, I think, goes into this rarified realm.

[Popeyesays]

"This is also the greatest flaw of Islam - its contention that the Creator and the created are separate. They are not separate for the simple reason that one cannot exist without the other. And Islam (to the best of my understanding) does not touch on the subject of the state when the twain (Creator-created) no longer exist in their respective states."
That's an interpretation of course, I don't agree with it mind you, but it's an interpretation. I don't think it is even universal in Hinduism.

Regards,
Scott

[nawab]

Listen, first you are saying something of what you do not know praying to the Kaaba is only to create unity among the Universal Muslim brothers, so that every muslim around the world is praying in one direction. to create unity. I will come to Hinduism later i am a student of comparitive religion. i have knowledge in Hindu Scriptures. We do not pray towards the stone, we pray towards the Kaaba again but directed to Allah, I dont know where have you heard this from but the Kaaba is just like our direction and the stone just to bear witness, we Humans are the best of creations, better than any other living things. Ashraaf ul Maklukaat.

Allah was still exsisting before the creation of man, for his pleasure his angels are enough, we Humans were created as the best of living creatures to pass our test in this life and to enter paradise if we pass this exam. Yes the painter can also come into exsistence with a different painting, he doesnt have to be admired through a particular painting. Allah is not disappeared anywhere he likes to observe How obedient are we, Are we fit to enter paradise or not.

Now, back to Hinduism, Hindu is a geogrophical description, any person who living below the Himaliyas and who lives beyond the river Sindh is a Hindu, this word was initially formed by the Persian Muslims Conquerers agreed by the british and according to Encycopidia Britannia. as according to this word I am also a Hindu as i live under the Himaliyas and over the river Sindh. I am originally from Pakistan. the real word is Sanatan Dharm (Eternal Faith) or Ved Dharm (vedic Religion)

the Kaaba was created for our unity, we do not approve what Hinduism states 4 classes, Brahmans(priests), Kshatriyas(warriors), Vaisya (merchants), Sudra(servants). People who are not in this category are classified as Untouchables i dont even think they are considered humans. They have absolutely no right in the Hindu Society. We like to increase our brotherhood not to distort it.

No wonder, many untouchables are converting to Christanity and Islam. My Family orginally from the family of Maharajah Jodha Rao of Jodhpur, my great grand father converted to Islam by Allahs grace. from Rao Amar Singh to Nawab Nader Ali Khan. many others are converting everyday from Hinduism to other faiths and why is that. The national poet of Pakistan Allama Muhammad Iqbal, his grand father being a brahamin converted to Islam. So, many Hindus converted to Islam.It is even mentioned in your own scriptures. According to Bhavishya Purana (about Future) in the Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised:

At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatma, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

May Allah give us all guidiance to learn the truth

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"This is also the greatest flaw of Islam - its contention that the Creator and the created are separate. They are not separate for the simple reason that one cannot exist without the other. And Islam (to the best of my understanding) does not touch on the subject of the state when the twain (Creator-created) no longer exist in their respective states."
That's an interpretation of course, I don't agree with it mind you, but it's an interpretation. I don't think it is even universal in Hinduism.

Regards,
Scott

Your response is great. You did not take a position that this is right or that is wrong. You can see all possibilities. You have indeed the universal mind. To create this mind is the purpose of religion or spirituality. Let there be and flower a thousand religions and view points. So long as we are able to have universal minds in our midst, what matters it? You are truly a spiritual man of religion.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

Your response is great. You did not take a position that this is right or that is wrong. You can see all possibilities. You have indeed the universal mind. To create this mind is the purpose of religion or spirituality. Let there be and flower a thousand religions and view points. So long as we are able to have universal minds in our midst, what matters it? You are truly a spiritual man of religion.

Kind words, thank you.

You might appreciate this written by Shoghi Effendi approximately 1933:
"1The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh ... is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society.... "The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, page i.

Regards,
Scott

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by nawab

Listen, first you are saying something of what you do not know praying to the Kaaba is only to create unity among the Universal Muslim brothers, so that every muslim around the world is praying in one direction. to create unity. I will come to Hinduism later i am a student of comparitive religion. i have knowledge in Hindu Scriptures. We do not pray towards the stone, we pray towards the Kaaba again but directed to Allah, I dont know where have you heard this from but the Kaaba is just like our direction and the stone just to bear witness, we Humans are the best of creations, better than any other living things. Ashraaf ul Maklukaat.

I am still confused. You say that the Black Stone bears witness. When I asked how an inert stone can bear witness, you said Allah can make everything possible. A stone bearing witness is acceptable to Islam and is not considered idolatry. Is it not akin to stones (idols) in Hinduism bearing witness and more? Why did Mohammad destroy all the idols in Mecca (and his followers elsewhere) but retain just this stone?

Originally Posted by nawab

Now, back to Hinduism, Hindu is a geogrophical description, any person who living below the Himaliyas and who lives beyond the river Sindh is a Hindu, this word was initially formed by the Persian Muslims Conquerers agreed by the british and according to Encycopidia Britannia. as according to this word I am also a Hindu as i live under the Himaliyas and over the river Sindh. I am originally from Pakistan. the real word is Sanatan Dharm (Eternal Faith) or Ved Dharm (vedic Religion)

I agree with your view point on the geographical origin of the word ‘Hindu’ but it is not true that it originated with the ‘Persian Muslim Conquerors’. India (which name also traces its origin to the name Sindu) had links with Persia even before Islam.

Originally Posted by nawab

the Kaaba was created for our unity, we do not approve what Hinduism states 4 classes, Brahmans(priests), Kshatriyas(warriors), Vaisya (merchants), Sudra(servants). People who are not in this category are classified as Untouchables i dont even think they are considered humans. They have absolutely no right in the Hindu Society. We like to increase our brotherhood not to distort it.

Don’t you have the Mullahs, the Army, the Businessmen and the ordinary unskilled Workers in Saudi Arabia? So what is wrong with Hinduism having such a classification? And the untouchables – well, in Mecca non-believers or Kafirs are not allowed in – that’s a sort of untouchability.

Originally Posted by nawab

No wonder, many untouchables are converting to Christanity and Islam. My Family orginally from the family of Maharajah Jodha Rao of Jodhpur, my great grand father converted to Islam by Allahs grace. from Rao Amar Singh to Nawab Nader Ali Khan. many others are converting everyday from Hinduism to other faiths and why is that. The national poet of Pakistan Allama Muhammad Iqbal, his grand father being a brahamin converted to Islam. So, many Hindus converted to Islam.

Talking about conversions, your forefathers were obviously not untouchables because you say you come from a royal family. This proves that your forefathers were able to convert because Hinduism believes in the validity of all religions. This is unlike Islam where you are treated as an apostate if you convert and you can be killed for it.

Originally Posted by nawab

It is even mentioned in your own scriptures. According to Bhavishya Purana (about Future) in the Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised: At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatma, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

It is interesting that a Hindu scripture was able to predict about a religion yet to be born but Quran has not mentioned anything about Hinduism which was alive and thriving. Does this indicate the limitation of the Quran?

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

You might appreciate this written by Shoghi Effendi approximately 1933:
"1The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh ... is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society.... "The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, page i.

I am thrilled to read this. I think this saying of Baha'u'llah is worthy of being embossed in gold on all the walls of religious houses across the world.

[nawab]

Now, i have informed you alittle bit about Hinduism, and we can proceed now.

1) Having a stone to bear witness is not Idoltry, we do not worship it, seek aid, or forgiviness from the Black stone, but Hindus they do with the idols right that it is Idoltry, you are even going against your own Religion where it is mentioned in Yajurved Na Tas Ya Pratima asti (sanskrit quotation) Of him there is no Pratima (it can be translated Picture, Sculpture, Photo, Idol) ask your own scholars for more reference.

2) Muhammad destroyed all Idols accept the stone, because the stone is not an idol, moreover the companion of our Prophet PBUH Bilal, the stand on the Kaaba to give the Adhan (the call of prayer)
which Pandit will stand on the statue of Lord Shiva to perform the Mantra.

3) Suppose, The name Hindu is not found by Muslim Conqureres, i dont mind but still why do you use it as an identification of your followers, the word is not mentioned in any of the original test in any of the vedas, Puranas, Smritis or shrutis. The name was later included.

4) Good Counter Arguement, but not logical we have Mullahs, Warriors, Bussiness man, Servants. but we dont have a difference of social status. We dont say that a servant cannot go to the house of the Mullah or the Mullah cannot eat from the servants. we dont have a caste system. When i was small i used to be proud calling myself a Rajput when later i studied more about islamic Universal brotherhood and then i knew what kind of fool was I. We pray Shoulder to shoulder to earase the Devil of Racism/Casteism. You claim that Brahmins are higher in status then the 3 castes, the Kshatriyas are higer than the 2 castes. You guys can even inter-marriage. Eat food from the same table and even drink from the same glass, Can you imagine even among the Hindus there is no brotherhood.

Dude you know very well that the Untouchables Dalits i was talking about had nothing to do with Meccas and non-muslims. further explained in point 4.

4) Every religion has two kind of people Beleivers and non-beleivers A Christian and a non-Christian (Gentile), A Jew and a Non-Jew (Akum), A Hindu and a non-Hindu, A muslim and a non-Muslim(Kafir).I dont see how you were trying to put a false allegation on us, Unfortunately you were unsuccessful. Mecca is a Members Zone, Anyone wants to enter have to become a Member, and the criteria to becoming a member is to become a Muslim. The place where i lived in China before, in Xinjiang, there were offlimits to me because of the Army Base of China, I dont go around telling people they dont let me enter a Military base, they are discriminating me.it would be stupid.

[nawab]

5) You are right, our family were not untouchable, However, My Great Fathers tomb is still in the Battlefield of Marwar. He converted to Islam, leaving everything behind and to reside in Sodawas, later my grandfather moved to Pakistan but i dont want to whine about the sacrifices but obviously there was also difficulty but that his besides my point. Hinduism does not beleives in validity of all religions. During the time of Jains, Jains were prosecuted, the Buddists were prosecuted, every minority was prosecuted. Just compare Pakistan and India in this sense. Do you hear any Hindu-Muslim riots in Pakistan. There are 3 million Hindus living in Karachi alone, How many muslims were living in Gujarat during the riots. less than 2 million. We follow Islamic rule in Pakistan thats why there is no trouble with Christians or Hindus but in India you are a seculeur country thats why there is so much conflicts. Beleive me all religions do that killing apostates. My Great grand father, I would say was someone with enough Power by Allahs blessings so no one could do him any harm.

6) Regarding Quran, I will only say that it was important for the Hindus to know about Islam but not for muslims to know about Hindus. Why,
If The Hindus follow thier own scriptures properly they should be converting to Islam, as the verse indicated before. For Muslims we are told in the Quran that we should not prioritize among Prophets, some Prophets stories are told and some are not told, thats besides the point. A prophet was sent every nation Quran 35:24, Today is the time of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH you should be following the Last Revealation the Quran as indicated before in your scripture, i will post again for you below:-

Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised:

At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatma, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

May Allah Showers his guidiance on all,

P.S. I apologise if i have hurt anyones feelings, i was just quoting scriptures with Logic. If i am wrong i am always open for corrections.