Baha'i and Unitarian Universalism (Jesus, ritual, Earth, purification, tradition)

[lilithu]

Popeyesays and I had this exchange from another thread:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

This world does not come to an end. It is maintained moment to moment by God's will just as it was created in the first place by God's will.

That also means that it does come to an end instant to instant without our ever knowing the process is on-going . . . . Blip! Blip! Blip! . . . . frame to frame without our seeing the interruption.

Originally Posted by lilithu

This is what I believe as well.

My "Islam & Science" professor who is Muslim also sees it this way. But I have the impression that this is not mainstream Muslim belief.

I also have the impression that most Muslims see God as a being, just as many Christians do, whereas you have said in this thread that you do not. Is it standard Baha'i belief that God is not a being, but rather the basis of being?

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Exactly. Baha`u'llah refers to God as The Source of All Being.

I'd like to explore it further.


One of the differences between the Baha'i faith and UU is that while we both believe that revelation is ongoing, the Baha'i believe in "progressive revelation" where as the UUs believe in "continuous revelation."

Progressive revelation, as I understand it, is the belief that God has sent a series of prophets to us to reveal God's will, as we are ready to understand it. Humanity is progressing to a higher state over time, and some things would not have made sense to us in the past so they were not explained. Thus, the different messages of the different prophets are not contradictory, but rather reflect our differing ability to receive the message.

Ongoing revelation, otoh, does not come from a God that is separate from us. It is the Spirit at work within and through us... ALL THE TIME. Every now and then, when the conditions are right, someone understands something that was not understood before, or understands it in a new way. It is not per se someone "chosen" in the literal sense, unless one wants to say that the combination of the conditions and the persons own willingness to be a prophet "chooses" the person. It could be anyone of us. It was King and Gandhi and the person manning your neighborhood soup kitchen.

I understand how continuous revelation works given the above concept of God, but I do not understand how progressive revelation works. If God is not a being, how does God send prophets to us as we are ready to receive them?

[Popeyesays]

Let's look at the baha`i Short Obligatory Prayer:

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast Created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help-in-Peril, the Self-Sibsisting."

So we are created to know God and worship God, and that God is the source of power and bounty, that He is One and sufficient to Himself.

yet we are told that God in His Essence is unknowable:
"That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)

So how DO we know and worship God?

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 46)

So the instrument of God's Revelation is that act of making Himself known to man who can't do that on His Own--these Manifestations become the instrument of education to mankind.

They follow one another in succession--in progression, each one re-affirming that which was revealed before and adding to man's education in the process.

Each of these manifestations KNEW the nature of all of the Revelation of God but acted as a perfect servant making known to man only what God intended be made known.

Revelation is therefore both continuous and progressive.

The Divine Messengers are unique beings among men--Hummingbirds among birds--They come at God's behest when mankind is in most grievous need and the messages from prior revelations are most veiled and confusing.

Regards,
Scott

[Angelfire]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Let's look at the baha`i Short Obligatory Prayer:

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast Created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help-in-Peril, the Self-Sibsisting."

So we are created to know God and worship God, and that God is the source of power and bounty, that He is One and sufficient to Himself.

yet we are told that God in His Essence is unknowable:
"That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)

So how DO we know and worship God?

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 46)

So the instrument of God's Revelation is that act of making Himself known to man who can't do that on His Own--these Manifestations become the instrument of education to mankind.

They follow one another in succession--in progression, each one re-affirming that which was revealed before and adding to man's education in the process.

Each of these manifestations KNEW the nature of all of the Revelation of God but acted as a perfect servant making known to man only what God intended be made known.

Revelation is therefore both continuous and progressive.

The Divine Messengers are unique beings among men--Hummingbirds among birds--They come at God's behest when mankind is in most grievous need and the messages from prior revelations are most veiled and confusing.

Regards,
Scott

Behold, I set before thee an open door which no man can shut. I have to disagree
with most of the above Scott. God has readily made himself available to those that
will willing do all the necessary work of self purification. This was the message of
Christ and its still valid today.

The above says - Consciousness doth not reach it........Spiritual Revelation reveals
God is consciousness.....All is consciousness. Everything in the cosmos is consciousness. There is no physical universe, it is consciousness appearing as the
universe.




peace

[arthra]

I don't know.. I've met many Unitarians and they are for the most part great people and socially aware which is a fine attribute...

One thing though you will usually not get all Unitarians together that would agree with

"God is consciousness.....All is consciousness. Everything in the cosmos is consciousness. There is no physical universe, it is consciousness appearing as the
universe."

Now one could certainly be a Unitarian from what I gather and believe this...but the above quoted statement isn't really I would sugggest the credo for Unitarians.

Baha'is do tend to have pretty much a concept of Covenant which means we have agreement on some things that were we feel revealed by Baha'u'llah..

We could agree with Unitarians say on the oneness of God and many of our social ideas are very close...

As to progressive revealtion though it is a concept that man has been created to establish an ever advancing civilization:

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.

Anyway... interesting discussion...maybe more Unitarians and Baha'is can join in!

- Art

[Angelfire]

Originally Posted by arthra

I don't know.. I've met many Unitarians and they are for the most part great people and socially aware which is a fine attribute...

One thing though you will usually not get all Unitarians together that would agree with

"God is consciousness.....All is consciousness. Everything in the cosmos is consciousness. There is no physical universe, it is consciousness appearing as the
universe."

Now one could certainly be a Unitarian from what I gather and believe this...but the above quoted statement isn't really I would sugggest the credo for Unitarians.

Baha'is do tend to have pretty much a concept of Covenant which means we have agreement on some things that were we feel revealed by Baha'u'llah..

We could agree with Unitarians say on the oneness of God and many of our social ideas are very close...

As to progressive revealtion though it is a concept that man has been created to establish an ever advancing civilization:

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.

Anyway... interesting discussion...maybe more Unitarians and Baha'is can join in!

- Art

I am not unitarian. It is not a belief, beliefs may or may not be true. I speak not of other mens words but rather of what was Divinely revealed to me. As my post said,
do the work and you will know the truth.





peace

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by arthra

I don't know.. I've met many Unitarians and they are for the most part great people and socially aware which is a fine attribute...

One thing though you will usually not get all Unitarians together that would agree with

"God is consciousness.....All is consciousness. Everything in the cosmos is consciousness. There is no physical universe, it is consciousness appearing as the universe."

Now one could certainly be a Unitarian from what I gather and believe this...but the above quoted statement isn't really I would sugggest the credo for Unitarians.

Baha'is do tend to have pretty much a concept of Covenant which means we have agreement on some things that were we feel revealed by Baha'u'llah.

Yes, I realize it's difficult to have a comparative discussion of what UUs believe versus any other religion because there isn't consensus on what UUs believe. We don't even agree on whether or not there is God. And we certainly don't have a credo.

But *I* (and other UUs are free to disagree) still think there are guarded generalizations that we can make. The UUs whom I know who are theists generally do not believe in a personal deity who judges and interferes/intervenes in daily life. Those of us who are theistic tend to be pantheist or panentheist. Most of the Pagan UUs whom I know tend to be pantheistic, not polytheistic. This is largely due to the fact that almost all UUs value science as a source of truth. But it is also deeply rooted in our faith tradition. Ralph Waldo Emerson was a Unitarian and a panentheist (tho he wouldn't have used such a term). So, for those of us UUs who do use the god-language, I feel reasonably comfortable that we can say we have some commonly held beliefs.

Originally Posted by arthra

We could agree with Unitarians say on the oneness of God and many of our social ideas are very close...

UUs are very oriented towards social activism - organizing socially and politically with the aim of making the world more just. In contrast, my impression is that Baha'i, while also believing in social justice, are not so much into the social activism. It seems to me that Baha'i prefer to work within existing structures instead of opposing them. UUs see ourselves as opposing oppression. Baha'i seem to instead seek harmony between peoples. Is this accurate?

I think this is related to the "progressive revelation" versus "continuous revelation." When UUs speak of the prophetic tradition (if they do), we're talking about social critics who call society to live up to their professed values. As such, ANYONE can be a "prophet" in our tradition. To hear the call of God is to hear your own social conscience to speak from that. No burning bushes; no angelic visits. (Tho I'm not ruling out that such things can happen; I'm just now waiting for them either.)

Originally Posted by arthra

As to progressive revealtion though it is a concept that man has been created to establish an ever advancing civilization:

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.

Traditionally, Unitarians have believed in this kind of social progress. William Ellery Channing believed that we were made in the likeness of God and that our role was to cultivate this innate godliness/goodliness - to nurture and grow it, so that we become ever more perfect like God is perfect.

After two world wars and several genocides, I'm not sure I buy that.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

So the instrument of God's Revelation is that act of making Himself known to man who can't do that on His Own--these Manifestations become the instrument of education to mankind.

They follow one another in succession--in progression, each one re-affirming that which was revealed before and adding to man's education in the process.

Each of these manifestations KNEW the nature of all of the Revelation of God but acted as a perfect servant making known to man only what God intended be made known.

Revelation is therefore both continuous and progressive.

Hi Scott, namaste.

In UU belief (again, speaking only of those who speak of God and revelation, etc), humanity IS able to know God without need of manifestations, because, as Emerson said, there is no separation between us and God. Each one of us carries the divine spark within us. What I mean by continuous revelation is the revelation of God to us at any/every given moment, if we are in the right frame to perceive it.

From the UU perspective, what is special about Siddhartha and Jesus and others. is that they fully responded to and embraced the call, whereas most of us do not. (Either we do not respond at all or we do not embrace it fully.) It isn't that they were manifestations of God. At least, no more so than any of the rest of us are. From the UU perspective, they were not "sent" by God. Rather, they arose from the divine presence that is always with us. Maybe the time and conditions just happened to be right. Or maybe they were truly exceptional people. Or both.

What I mean by continuous revelation is that God is speaking to us all the time - every moment of every second. (Just as God is sustaining the Universe every moment of every second.) We have only to tap into the divinity within us to listen.